Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: Supreme Democracy

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2019 19:45

Tuesday is the big day about prorogation.

The Supreme Court hears the case of Cherry and Miller against the government.

This could test the constitution and the union. The Supreme Court sits as both as a Scottish Court and and English Court and applies Scottish / English law accordingly. And there are differences. It is possible that prorogation might only be illegal under one or the other but would have effect on parliament. Or its possible that the Supreme Court might decide to uphold the government position.

What is encouraging is the constitutional expert blogs which suggest that they lean to the court intervening. It's important that for the A50 case the Supreme Court referenced the arguments in these blogs.

But let's not get too carried away.

As it is Joe Moor, former director of legislative affairs at 10 Downing Street wrote in today's Telegraph that Johnson could merely prorogue again from Oct 14 "until at least Nov 6" thus preventing parliamentary scrutiny of no deal which would help enable in effect illegally. The Times also reported Cummings as having said this to advisors.

This has been dismissed by legal experts, but the point remains there is a willingness to both frustrate parliament and be as obstructive as possible in the days leading up to 31st.

There is also the 'Nobile Officium' Court action designed to stop illegal no deal by allowing the courts to write a letter to the EU to request an extension of Johnson refuses to.

It remains to be seen if it has even a chance of success.

The British press has been full of comments of optimism for a deal this weekend. This is after there was positive noises in a similar vein from Brussels. These has since been largely dismissed as mere political will with no practical progress. The British optimism has also been dismissed as mere posturing. And Priti Patel "misspoke" when she appeared to suggest that no deal was no policy this morning.

Other rumours include the French willing to grant a 2year extension but not a 3month one out of fear this will happen repeatedly. The French are now pushing for a deal and relaxing their approach as such (but Germany won't compromise the single market and Ireland the GFA so its all talk).

And do not forget, for all the talk of a deal there are certain time restrains.

Apparently Nikki da Costa has a timetable to get a deal through parliament in 'just ten days' on a spreadsheet. So that gives you an idea that the 19th October is possibly the last day to get a deal in front of parliament if you completely accept that we are leaving without any extension. This neglects the issue that a new deal isn't on the table from the EU and the backstop isn't going anywhere.

A last minute deal or no deal situation is highly risky with the ERG on one side and hard core Remainers who think Johnson won't defy the Benn Amendment and thus will try and block a deal to the last

It seems that we will have a game of cat and mouse until the bitter end.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
thecatfromjapan · 16/09/2019 22:46

Thanks , Cordelia.

I despair sometimes. I really do. But I figure I have to keep on doing anything I can (& that is very little) because this is, indeed, too serious to do nothing.

I've had adult women cry on me because of what Brexit is already doing to their lives. I've had a child explain to me how scared she is.

So ... on we go.

thecatfromjapan · 16/09/2019 22:47

Oh, & I agree with you, BigChoc, about LK and her exclusives.

Outsomnia · 16/09/2019 22:48

Why does UK hate the EU so much?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 16/09/2019 22:49

I also strongly agree with BigChoc.(Must stop that.)

Thats why I cant wait till this shitstorm gets sorted, me and BCF have agreed way too much lately and that needs to stop Grin

I think thats the beauty of these threads and thank you Red for that is that as long as you research your point and are willing to listen to the others side (I'm sure Bear would disagree with me about my ability to do that) you can have an intelligence and sometimes opinion altering debates but coming in here and just spaffing slogans/tropes/soundbites will rightly get you pulled up on it

tobee · 16/09/2019 22:50

They don't really hate the EU. They (maybe) hate what they've been primed by the right wing press to hate. The EU is their umbrella scapegoat.

JeSuisPoulet · 16/09/2019 22:50

I wonder what percentage of BBC viewers are leave/remain - you'd think they would poll that. I thought most leavers had stopped paying their licence fee in 2016/17 due to the "bias"? I've very certainly considered it since 2017 as a remainer. My dad's argument is that if both sides feel that way they must be impartial - but I don't think Leavers watch BBC for news now...? Would be interesting to see figures.

JeSuisPoulet · 16/09/2019 22:53

I really do think a lot of Leavers will be shocked that the rest of the world doesn't see us as plucky brave soldiers in all of this. I'm still going to suspect this may not work out well for BoZo in the public eye. Maybe I'm too hopeful but there are too many cracks.

cordeliajackson · 16/09/2019 22:53

o ... on we go
What women are posting on this thread is absolutley heart breaking.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3693146-Please-tell-me-specifically-how-Brexit-will-affect-you
What a regime is called which forces it on women is so utterly familiar to those who've experienced the Nazis or ISIS or any extremist male authoritarian group, enabled by foolish and or entitled women.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 22:53

Cummings is brilliant at whipping up an angry mob, but is overrated as a strategist in his current job

BJ is lazy and has never bothered to learn about what he is supposed to be doing

BUT such people are very dangerous when much of the public is very angry, wants very simple solutions and has been primed to despise experts

Most Nazi leaders in the 1930s were thugs and far less intelligent than those they put into camps
Sometimes being very intelligent is less useful than having good running shoes and the instinct when to use them

tobee · 16/09/2019 22:55

Interestingly, I would say Sky News seems more remain biased than BBC. Which is surprising. And quite possibly wrong. Grin

thecatfromjapan · 16/09/2019 22:55

Anyway, welcome, Cordelia. Please join in, share what you know. We're in an appalling, fractious, divided moment.
I keep talking about resistance - I'm s broken record - but sharing, and recognising each other as human - is increasingly becoming an act of resistance.

I think this GE is going to be harrowing.

I already foresee I am going to find it hard. Lab and the Lib Dems are setting up to fight & campaign negatively against each other.

I can't tell you the despair I feel about it. How I know it will take us to the edge of disaster, perhaps beyond it, when we actually need to hold together to resist the absolute fall.

So, it would be good if we could all create that moment of humanity here. Because we're going to need it.

yolofish · 16/09/2019 22:56

Can anyone remember the link to drugs which will be in short supply? DH due to start another course of chemo (6 months!!) in a week or so, and consultant couldnt answer the question about drug availability.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 16/09/2019 22:57

Cordelia

My view is that the more questions people ask about what is going on with prorogation, the Supreme Court, how legislation is passed, how Constitutional Conventions work the better.

It’s really important to democracy that people understand the mechanics of how democracy works in this country. I have had the joys of reading Dicey and the rather more accessible Jowell and Oliver and Tom Bingham but most people haven’t and never will.

But people do need to know this stuff as the current shenanigans prove.

MarshaBradyo · 16/09/2019 22:59

I dip in and out of these threads but they’ve been running for such a long time it’s not unusual that there’d be some shared lightness. There’s a lot of seriousness too.

prettybird · 16/09/2019 22:59

tobee - dh and I have started watching Sky News for preference over BBC. Will watch the headlines on BBC's 6pm and 10pm news but most of the rest of the time watch Sky now Shock

cordeliajackson · 16/09/2019 23:00

However, subversives have used humour even under the worst dictatorships, so we shouldn't feel embarassed by using it now

You've just written some really nasty stuff about me, which I was prepare to ignore.

But this is utter BS.

You and most on this thread have clearly never done anything to attain the rights you currently have courtesy of those who have won them on your behalf.

Read a book BigChoc An intelligent one.

Think.

chomalungma · 16/09/2019 23:03

I can't tell you the despair I feel about it. How I know it will take us to the edge of disaster, perhaps beyond it, when we actually need to hold together to resist the absolute fall

At least you are doing something. I am actively going to take part in doing something for the people's vote campaign and the Labour campaign this time. Getting people to register to vote, distributing leaflets, taking people to the polling station.

I need to do something. Because I need to tell myself that I tried to do something rather than nothing.

Star Wars has many many good analogies here. And some great quotes.

"The time to fight is now"
"Rebellions Are Built On Hope"

And for whenever Boris Johnson is being interviewed

"I Find That Answer Vague And Unconvincing."

tobee · 16/09/2019 23:06

Who do you think you are, cordelia?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 16/09/2019 23:07

Who do you think you are, cordelia?

^^This

thecatfromjapan · 16/09/2019 23:08

OK. I'm not having the 'stupid, entitled women' thing.

Enough.

Women are worst affected by austerity & Brexit.

Women have been fairly under-represented in the groups enabling this.

There's even a gender divide in BJ's support base (I'll let you guess who supports him).

This is not in 'stupid, entitled women'.

I am entitled. I'm entitled to talk & have an opinion. I worry about losing that.

As for stupid? I don't think I care. There's been too much talk of stupid.

DoctorTwo · 16/09/2019 23:08

DS1 went through an entire Glastonbury festival without bowel evacuation (got within 50 yards of bogs and gave up in horror), so there's plenty of scope for cutting down on loo roll

@Hasenstein this is a thing. According to Roger's Profanisaurus it's known as a 'Glastonbury Tailback'. Roger's Profanisaurus is worth a day's a few minutes reading for a good chuckle

Icantreachthepretzels · 16/09/2019 23:11

Cordelia has a very interesting poster history. Today is only the second ever day they have posted on mumsnet. The previous occasion was 27th January 2017.
That was the time of an important court ruling too - probably the article 50 one.
Their contribution to the 75% of mothers thread is ... combative. which is a polite way of saying trolling

thecatfromjapan · 16/09/2019 23:11

Anyway ...

Labour's Brexit position ...

I'm beginning to re-think my stance that 'neutral' is less good than 'Remain'.

Strategically, we need a neutered WA on a PV ballot. If we manage that, we may see a lot less money poured into the PV on the side of 'Leave'.

Only way to get that, is a neutral negotiating team.

On the other hand, may not stop the money and a neutral position does stop the heft of the organisational power of Labour, with its resources and data, weighing in behind Remain.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 23:13

"Who do you think you are, cordelia?"

A superior intellectual looking down on those of us who don't fall into line

If I had to list all the causes why people voted Leave, then I'd include an angry reaction to the open contempt that a small section of the mc feels for all the stupid people who doesn't share their views

However, let us return to Brexit, the hard right and yes, to humour wherever we can find it

PestyMachtubernahme · 16/09/2019 23:14

JeSuis concur about the doinking

Cordelia , I struggled to read the same book as BoJoCums , I won't mention it as RTB asked me not to many years ago.

We may or not make it to the next election or accession. Things, they are a changing, not for the better.