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Brexit

Westminstenders: Supreme Democracy

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2019 19:45

Tuesday is the big day about prorogation.

The Supreme Court hears the case of Cherry and Miller against the government.

This could test the constitution and the union. The Supreme Court sits as both as a Scottish Court and and English Court and applies Scottish / English law accordingly. And there are differences. It is possible that prorogation might only be illegal under one or the other but would have effect on parliament. Or its possible that the Supreme Court might decide to uphold the government position.

What is encouraging is the constitutional expert blogs which suggest that they lean to the court intervening. It's important that for the A50 case the Supreme Court referenced the arguments in these blogs.

But let's not get too carried away.

As it is Joe Moor, former director of legislative affairs at 10 Downing Street wrote in today's Telegraph that Johnson could merely prorogue again from Oct 14 "until at least Nov 6" thus preventing parliamentary scrutiny of no deal which would help enable in effect illegally. The Times also reported Cummings as having said this to advisors.

This has been dismissed by legal experts, but the point remains there is a willingness to both frustrate parliament and be as obstructive as possible in the days leading up to 31st.

There is also the 'Nobile Officium' Court action designed to stop illegal no deal by allowing the courts to write a letter to the EU to request an extension of Johnson refuses to.

It remains to be seen if it has even a chance of success.

The British press has been full of comments of optimism for a deal this weekend. This is after there was positive noises in a similar vein from Brussels. These has since been largely dismissed as mere political will with no practical progress. The British optimism has also been dismissed as mere posturing. And Priti Patel "misspoke" when she appeared to suggest that no deal was no policy this morning.

Other rumours include the French willing to grant a 2year extension but not a 3month one out of fear this will happen repeatedly. The French are now pushing for a deal and relaxing their approach as such (but Germany won't compromise the single market and Ireland the GFA so its all talk).

And do not forget, for all the talk of a deal there are certain time restrains.

Apparently Nikki da Costa has a timetable to get a deal through parliament in 'just ten days' on a spreadsheet. So that gives you an idea that the 19th October is possibly the last day to get a deal in front of parliament if you completely accept that we are leaving without any extension. This neglects the issue that a new deal isn't on the table from the EU and the backstop isn't going anywhere.

A last minute deal or no deal situation is highly risky with the ERG on one side and hard core Remainers who think Johnson won't defy the Benn Amendment and thus will try and block a deal to the last

It seems that we will have a game of cat and mouse until the bitter end.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 22:20

"Surely you know ... "

Surely you know there's so much going on that it's difficult for most of us to keep up with everything

NoWordForFluffy · 16/09/2019 22:20

We know it's complicated. We know we're fucked. We don't need it spelling out to us like we're naughty school children who've not been listening.

NoWordForFluffy · 16/09/2019 22:21

Where are you based, cordelia?

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 22:22

Adam Boulton@adamboultonSKY

Boos were audible when BJ first went into No 10.
He didn’t cancel.
< unfortunately >

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 16/09/2019 22:28

If an extension to prorogation needed Royal approval or an attempt to reprorogue after a negative court judgement then HMQ is stuck between

1 Approving - this makes her look like a pointless rubber stamp rather than having a real Constitutional role

Or

2 Declining - Republicans will then have a field day that the unelected Monarch has overridden the Government

cordeliajackson · 16/09/2019 22:29

^oos were audible when BJ first went into No 10.
He didn’t cancel.
unfortunately^

So what? It's just theatre. What are you? Lemmings?

I don't follow the horrendous shite which passes for drama on anglophone media, but I would have thought anyone with half an ounce of intelligence would have been able to work out what's going on here, but apparently not.

Where are you based, cordelia
Do you ask all the Lear daughters that, fluffy?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 16/09/2019 22:29

He then gave an intimate, safe-environment 'interview' (read Press Release there) with Laura Kuenssberg.
Who complied. Despite knowing how this jeaopardises 'news', 'journalism' and 'reporting'.

I think some people now realise that what us Corbynite lefties have been saying this about Kussenberg and the BBC, but if you agree with the premise of the false 'reporting' then you think its accurate but now that she's giving Johnson such an easy time then Remainers have started seeing the BBC in a new light and the state broadcasters agenda has become nothing more than a Tory propaganda mouth piece

mummy what relevance does your clip have to the current discussion?

tobee · 16/09/2019 22:29

There's lots I don't know an absolute fuck tonne about this and many other things.

But there are certain people on this thread I've learned over time to listen to. More than others.

thecatfromjapan · 16/09/2019 22:30

I sense how frustrated and angry you are, Cordelia, but I promise you we care.

I'm also aware that others on this thread have posted exhaustive summaries of Maugham & others' analyses.

That (& having followed Maugham on Twitter) was how I knew to expect an effective 'nothing that can be acted on' ruling.

Which is distressing.

I was intending to go along anyway. And, yes, I already knew about not wearing any Stop Brexit stuff.

Another poster has suggested that the ruling most probably won't be tomorrow.

I am thinking I might go anyway. Because, as you point out, this is very, very serious.

ListeningQuietly · 16/09/2019 22:31

Plaice
Monkfish
Kipper
(all caught in UK waters)

tobee · 16/09/2019 22:33

But some people thecat are apparently so much more angry and frustrated than the rest of us.

TokyoSushi · 16/09/2019 22:34

I have a dreadful feeling they're going to get away with the prorougation as legal tomorrow Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 22:35

Yep, fluffy we may console ourselves with humour and cat pics - and piggie pics - but we know it's all deadly serious

However, subversives have used humour even under the worst dictatorships, so we shouldn't feel embarassed by using it now

The hard right / far right authoritarians hate & fear being laughed at
They can pretend to be brave at any - real or invented - fear of physical attack;
They definitely get their kicks out of being feared, of hearing how scary they are
So laughter is a legitimate weapon, to get them off balance

BJ looks very rattled as PM and his performance is way below what his fans expected
He looks miserable.
Good.

thecatfromjapan · 16/09/2019 22:37

I think it's been said by many, many people that there's an issue with the BBC, JustAnother.

It begins with the fact that political journalists rise and fall with 'access', which inevitably leads to politicians and political journalists not just inhabiting the same circle, but the same friendship groups.

Then you have the 'groupie' problem: they get seduced by access: it's hard not to.

Then there was the hostile takeover of the BBC running scared of the Conservative government, particularly their politics section.

And now ... we'll LK just crosses the line, doesn't she?

It's not going to end well for the BBC, I think.

(As for mummy's clip - well ...I have s feeling negative canvassing - from any Party - is going to go down badly on here.)

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 22:39

cordelia Contrary to MN belief, Westministenders isn't some militant Remainer army

We're not what you're looking for
And being rude & aggressive to us won't persuade us to be

In fact you probably turn off everyone you talk to

cordeliajackson · 16/09/2019 22:40

That (& having followed Maugham on Twitter) was how I knew to expect an effective 'nothing that can be acted on' ruling.

I have a dreadful feeling they're going to get away with the prorougation as legal tomorrow

the judicial ruling could take up to a week

Having read a lot of these threads, I don't think many do understand what's going on legally and constitutionally.

And I sort of understand their ignorance. But goodness me. We have the tinternet.

Appreciate your kind words though catinjapan you seem really nice and brave, and I appreciate that in these times.

tobee · 16/09/2019 22:41

Many people say that the BBC is left wing biased. It might have been "liberal" once. But I've really tried to see it with the Brexit debate but I find it very hard to get there.

colouringinpro · 16/09/2019 22:41

Just had to switch BBC Newsnight off. Sickening bias, lots of Johnson defenders. Bettel portrayed as being mean, of course no mention of late notice impractical demand to change venue.

This is what most of the country watch and believe.

I think we're f**ked.

prettybird · 16/09/2019 22:41

Carol Malone on Sky Press Preview very predictably going with the "rude" Luxembourgois PM and "who does he think he is?" line.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/09/2019 22:41

theCat imo LauraK keeps thinking she has an exclusive, so it's all worth it
Forgetting what serious journalism is all about

tobee · 16/09/2019 22:42

Here, here @BigChocFrenzy

thecatfromjapan · 16/09/2019 22:42

I also strongly agree with BigChoc.

(Must stop that.)

I'd add that it is also as dangerous to overestimate as to underestimate your opponent.

For all that Cumming's may be an evil genius, in total control of events (like some pre-Kierkegaardian God), it may well be the case he, and Johnson aren't.

Both are dangerous; both need consideration.

Demoralisation is a political weapon - so humour is a form of resistance.

tobee · 16/09/2019 22:44

Re BigChoc at message before her last message

tobee · 16/09/2019 22:45

(Mumsnet posting has gone funny again with slow loading & double posting.)

Outsomnia · 16/09/2019 22:45

Cannot understand the utter hatred of the EU from the UK.

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