Westministenders: Parliament Perogies pushing Rats in the Corner

[RedToothBrush]

One Opposition MP has just talked in parliament about how little the public understand what Preroguation is and what it meant. She described how one constituent thought it was about perogies.

The Benn Bill is now law and compels Johnson to ask for an extension if we have no deal.

Something that he has said he will die in a ditch to avoid and has suggested he would break the law.

But his options are hugely limited - if he refuses to do so and we no deal accidentally now, he is potentially personally liable for loses. He has no majority and the defeats keep on coming as a result.

Everything coming out now is the behaviour of a man with his back to the wall. The only thing he can do is frame everything as a people v the establishment and hope he survived until a GE. This is a dangerous time - he is now a rat in the corner with nothing to lose.

After Rudd's resignation, not much has got better for Johnson. Several other Tory MPs have signalled they won't stand again. This might mean they decide to rebel as they have nothing to lose. Lord Wellington, who has Tory written through him like a stick of rock, has also resigned the party. Attorney General Buckland hasn't resigned but has made threatening noises if the rule of law is broken.

Proroguation now does stack pressure on Johnson. He has to be the one to make moves and that is going to be difficult for him. However it also gives him time to say and do something without the scrutiny of parliament who have been blowing his arguments and legal assertions to bits with such ease.

Today he has visited Dublin where he stood next to Leo Varadkar who was less than polite nor even particularly diplomatic. The discomfort on Johnson's face and in his body language was very obvious. Varadkar in no uncertain terms said: ""if there is no deal, it will cause disruption for British and Irish people alike", adding "there's no such thing as a clean break, or just getting it done" and that he'd recieved no workable plan.

Tonight are two emergency debates. The first has just concluded about the government's lack of willingness to release documents relating to proroguation and operation yellowhammer.

Its been reported that ministers and civil servants have used private communications to conduct government ministers and this has caused huge concerns and Grieve wants to compel the government to release them. The government have responded saying this is an invasion of privacy. This has raised the accusation that Dominic Cummings personally has rifled through the phone messages of the former treasury communications officer as he sacked her and number 10 were not particularly concerned about her privacy then.

At the same time as the debate the government were briefing the press that they would refuse to comply with demands to release information. Grieve then made the point this was leading to the complete breakdown in trust in government.

David Allen Green said that if the government were to do this we could well be headed into a full blown constitutional crisis. This is the first time he's said he thinks we are actually at this stage.

Grieve was supported by the house by 311 votes to 302 votes ordering the government to release the documents.

The second debate is about the Rule of Law and the government's obligation to obey the Rule of Law.

Yet to come tonight is another vote about an early General Election before parliament pergoies, possibly in the early hours.

In other news John Bercow has decided to stand down at the next election or on the 31st October, which ever is sooner. There are rumours he was about to be deselected by his local conservative association and against convention would have to fight an election to win back his seat. He therefore was merely taking action before he was pushed. This might also be an action to protect parliament from the election of a new speaker after another election, fearing that there might be a hard right takeover which could threaten parliamentary soverignity.

Also this:
Declan Lawn @DecLawn
ERG stalwart Andrew Bridgen on @BBCPM saying the only way he could see a NI only backstop being acceptable is if it was put to an NI-only referendum. Fascinating.

PMK

My ds is questioning me on tectonic plates, magma, earths crust and volcanic eruptions instead of settling down and going to sleep. He's 4 ffs. Despite my earlier post, it seems I will be awake to see the votes.

@Bercows, you ds has great questions!!

Lol I'm still chuckling at Ian Austin its like dude seriously weve heard it all before

*Today he has visited Dublin where he stood next to Leo Varadkar who was less than polite nor even particularly diplomatic. The discomfort on Johnson's face and in his body language was very obvious. Varadkar in no uncertain terms said: ""if there is no deal, it will cause disruption for British and Irish people alike", adding "there's no such thing as a clean break, or just getting it done" and that he'd recieved no workable plan

I disagree redtoothbrush Leo has been polite and professional throughout. I am not his biggest fan but your Prime Minister has shown him in a good light with every interaction.

On the other hand, when Leo was speaking (answering a question) Boris Johnson was stretching, fidgeting, doodling and generally not listening in the way that a small child doesn't listen when they are bored.

PMK

I believe that... Dennis Skinner will be come Father of the House after next GE (!!)
Feels like sore justice dispensed to the ERG imho.

Thanks Red.
PMK

Where are all the bloody tories in this debate? coming back in later when its time to vote? presumably it is beneath them... am finding it fascinating and frightening at the same time.

I sympathise, Bercows. I've been trying to sing DD (aged 3) to sleep and she's now interrogating me in minute detail about the meaning of Bob Dylan's lyrics, which were the first thing that popped into my head. I'm fucked if I know what they mean.

Pmk

I drove up the A1 today and there were lots of dot matrix signs advising that freight/papers will all be changing on 1 November.

Watching the debates while frantically switching over here.

Thanks for keeping (us) going, RTB.

And please bear in mind that the people on the island of Ireland are preparing for devastating consequences of the decision of the people of the United Kingdom. We have had no say in your actions but we will suffer the consequences. We are all prepared for tough economical and social times because of the actions of our neighbours. So Leo's professionalism is to be especially commended when what he actually probably feels like saying is more along the lines of get your act together you ignorant buffoon. (polite version)

My money is still on revoke.

Pmk

Amazing summary Red thank you

@SunnivaGunne

I am ashamed at the way the island of Ireland has been treated in all this.

Varadkar was statesmanlike. BJ was not.

PMK.

@SunnivaGunne - believe me - you are preaching to the converted. 99% of the posters on these threads see the devastation that brexit is going to bring, but have been left feeling powerless.

Boris Johnson was stretching, fidgeting, doodling and generally not listening in the way that a small child doesn't listen when they are bored.

I said something very similar to DH when describing the news conference. It was profoundly disrespectful.

(Still thinking some kind of Celtic countries alliance isn't a bad way to go)

I'm wondering why a vote has not yet been implemented, and not only has it not happened there is talk of never implementing it. And many people seem to think this is acceptable because it concurs with what they want.

Very very scary stuff.

Actually it's not about what I want any more for me. I've said many times I'd love to remain but I don't think that's the best outcome now either.

It's about what is possible and what is rather more complex than anyone will admit.

I saw a very good thread today which really answers your question about why your vote hasn't be implemented.

This guy worked to the WTO. He knows about trade deals and how complex they are.

Peter Ungphrakorn @ CoppetainPU
Why is Brexit such a mess?

(Nothing new here. How could there be? It’s all been said before.)

This is just one angle.

PRETENDING THAT THE COMPLEX IS Simple

1. The referendum: Binary Leave v. Remain

THESE ARE ALL “LEAVE”:
No deal with the EU
1-page FTA
Complex FTA only in goods
Complex FTA mainly in goods (Canada)
Customs union (Turkey)
Complex bilaterals (Switzerland)
EFTA/EEA (Norway)

PRETENDING THAT THE COMPLEX IS SIMPLE

2. Simple red lines that turn out to be contradictory
2a. Simple red lines that ignore the Irish border
3/8

PRETENDING THAT THE COMPLEX IS SIMPLE

3. Claiming that the forms of Brexit you don’t like “are not Brexit”, when they actually require the UK to leave the EU and therefore fulfil the referendum result.
4/8

PRETENDING THAT THE COMPLEX IS SIMPLE

4. Myth-making: hiding behind legalese and technology that does not (yet) exist:
— Alternative arrangements
— The Swiss-EU, Norway-Sweden borders
— “WTO deal”
— GATT Article 24
5/8

PRETENDING THAT THE COMPLEX IS SIMPLE

5. Politicians, who should know better, repeatedly telling the public that it’s oh, so easy:
— Just believe in Britain
— We’re ready for a no deal Brexit
— Project fear
— Just a temporary setback
6/8

PRETENDING THAT THE COMPLEX IS SIMPLE

6. Leave and it’ll all be over.
— “Clean break”
— “Just leave”
— “Get it over and done with”

We’re in for a shock. Even with a deal, there are more negotiations (Canada? Norway?).

With no deal, clearing up the mess will take years.
7/8

Or if you prefer something more factual:
amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/03/no-deal-brexit-crashing-out-uk-europe?__twitter_impression=true
Don’t buy the bluff. Here’s the truth about no-deal Brexit
8/8

No I believe if we had been serious about wanting to leave, these are the grown up conversations we should have had and leavers should have been encouraging.

Any attempts to do this have been rebuffed with simple slogans.

Leaving the EU could be done and done well but needed to be done with this understanding of the complexities that necessitate to be a slow process (- and this includes the realities of no deal)

In not wishing to engage in that it has provoked a kick back from three groups - Hard line Remainers, concillatory Remainers who have said 'fair enough let's leave' and now those who support a sensible leave strategy - many of these are Tory moderates who are simply anti-No Dealers.

They've all been lumped in together and labelled as 'trying to frustrate leaving'.

In some cases this is correct. In others it's a deeply unfair comment. It merely is one used by people who are unwilling to admit the reality of Brexit being a bit more complicated than they make out for political purposes.

That's what pisses me off. Its not so much Brexit itself, its the bullshit that's gone with it, in its many many forms (and does include from the remain side).

But the most basic reason we've not left yet as you instructed is because it's been made out to be simple.

An admission that is a bloody difficult thing to do, early on or even now, would turn things on its head. But there's no political will to do this because the hard line Brexiteer ideology has become so entrenched.

Blame people here if you like. The reality of the situation is the fault of no one here.

BJ’s mannerisms are off the wall a lot of the time

Makes Corbyn look put together

SunnivaGunne your taoiseach was so eleoquent and dignified today, but you could tell that underneath he is furious. I am ashamed that my country is putting yours through this agony.