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Brexit

Can remainers tell me why you wouldn't vote for Corbyn in a GE?

265 replies

CaptainWarbeck · 06/09/2019 06:31

Discussing Brexit with centre right friend who is adament despite voting Labour in previous elections she would never vote for Corbyn. When pressed she mentions links to trade unions but can't tell me why that's a bad thing.

I don't love Corbyn but I would vote for him over the absolute mess that is the Tories at the moment. Why for remain/Labour voters right now is he so politically toxic?

OP posts:
frumpety · 06/09/2019 23:01

Did I see a broadsheet headline this week that said the city would even prefer Corbyn to a no deal exit ? I imagine if Labour did win an election with Corbyn as leader, he wouldn't be there for very long ?
Pointless me personally voting Labour in my constituency, would have to be the Lib Dems.

Beachcomber · 06/09/2019 23:07

Eurochick, where in the manifesto do you get your information about "whopping corporation tax"?

I have their manifesto open in another tab and this is what it says on the subject:

"Corporation tax in the UK is the lowest of any major developed economy. Our new settlement with business will ask large corporations to pay a little more while still keeping UK corporation tax among the lowest of the major developed economies. In turn, we will meet the business need for a more skilled workforce with extra corporate tax revenues while contributing to education and skills budgets.

We will protect small businesses by reintroducing the lower small profits rate of corporation tax."

Are you saying the above is a lie?

labour.org.uk/manifesto/creating-economy-works/#eighth

Symptomless · 06/09/2019 23:16

Beachcomber, I completely agree with you on the British media.

Katarinablum · 06/09/2019 23:22

Upthread someone mentioned more power to the trade unions
being a bad thing ..what's wrong with a body that represents the interests of ordinary working people ? Appreciate that their behaviour in the 1970's cobtributed to the economic stagnation of the time but who says modern forward thinking trade unions would act like that now.. Funny how in germany they have a positive role to play ...
Privatised Industries - that's gone well hasn't it ? Probation and prison service
Huge parts of the NHS, free schools, trains, water companies Again other eu countries haven't sold their public utilities off and still provide superior services.
Making huge companies like amazon pay their fair dues, again what's wrong with that ?

SeaWitchly · 07/09/2019 00:26

Well I am a remainer who will be voting for Labour/Corbyn in the GE.
I like Corbyn and his debating style. I trust him and he shows Boris up for the weak and lazy politician he is.

TheClitterati · 07/09/2019 00:27

He puts men On AWS

eurochick · 07/09/2019 02:49

@Beachcomber that's their sales pitch. This article (among others) explores what this actually means in practice.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/27/jeremy-corbyn-planning-almost-double-tax-burden-british-businesses/

Beachcomber · 07/09/2019 06:58

So you are saying that their manifesto lies about their policy on corporation tax?

jasjas1973 · 07/09/2019 07:07

eurochick

Yes, The Daily Telegraph is just the paper to get an in-depth and unbiased view of Labours tax and economic policies! i would suggest you try either the 'Mail or Sun for a more unbiased opinion lol!

Meanwhile the ordinary citizens tax burden continues to increase under the tories.

Beachcomber · 07/09/2019 07:30

Thanks for the link but I can't read it without signing up to the Telegraph and giving them my credit card number.

Can you cite something that actually quotes Corbyn or McDonnell or some other senior Labour minister on the subject?

I ask because I find there is a lot of misreporting and misrepresentation of Labour policies and Corbyn’s views in the MSM, particularly in right wing publications.

Did you know that the LSE did an investigation into the phenomenon? The Independent has reported on it. It's an interesting read and I agree with them that it is deeply problematic with regards to the values of democracy when a country's press veers from honest reporting into political propaganda.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-attacks-75-per-cent-three-quarters-fail-to-accurately-report-a7140681.html%3famp

www.lse.ac.uk/media@lse/research/pdf/JeremyCorbyn/Cobyn-Report-FINAL.pdf

And you can see that these tactics work. The Tories are trashing our country and our democracy and becoming increasingly extremist and yet people are mauling the Opposition.

Some of the stuff people post on here about Labour and Corbyn the bogeyman is hyperbolic to the point that it sounds like Spitting Image style satire. How they manage to say it with a straight face I don't know.

People come out with all sorts of ridiculous crap about the Labour party, none of which is in their manifesto or has been said by either Corbyn or McDonnell - so they must be getting it from the press and then it is repeated ad nauseum on social media until it becomes The Truth That Everybody Just Knows about those commies who are hiding in plain sight.

It is ridiculous but very concerning. This is Her Majesty's Opposition we are talking about for goodness sake, not some fringe faction Hmm

But people swallow it hook, line and sinker and the Tories will probably win the next election and continue trashing the UK because they are the rightful ruling class.

You can so tell that the UK never had a revolution in the way that France did.

Beachcomber · 07/09/2019 07:43

Meanwhile, Dominic Cummings, a man reported by members of the party he works for (but is not a member of) to "despise the democratic process" is pulling our Prime Minister's strings.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-cummings-boris-johnson-brexit-vote-commons-no-deal-downing-street-a9091181.html

But that's OK because corporation tax is really low and Boris Johnson is a jolly sort of fellow.

Hmm
Fatshedra · 07/09/2019 08:48

I think the media in the UK has a lot to answer for with regard to our present recent shambles.

Constant, constant, constant quotes from one MP with a tight agenda after another. WTF does it matter that some rightie/leftie insists that this must be if it is not going to happen ever.
Stop quoting strident arseholes who aren't going to make a bit of difference.
We need a mathematician. X number agree we must leave, ignore them now cause it doesn't matter what is sorted they won't vote wiht it, Y want no deal, Z Don't want no deal (but it excludes X so they do agree to leaving).
Get a representatiive of Y and a rep of Z, an Irish politican and a NI politican, and 3 lawyers who know each (EU, UK, Irish) law and they don't leave the room until they have an answer.
They privately inform the EU and PM of their decision.
The end.

detachablehoof · 07/09/2019 08:49

@BertrandRussell
I wasn't referring to his anti semitic comments.
I belong to a small Christian group.
Corbyn is anti-Christian

BertrandRussell · 07/09/2019 09:08

@detachablehoof- could you say done more? I can’t recall Corbyn in an anti Christian rant.

Random18 · 07/09/2019 09:21

I will most likely vote labour.

I am not a fan of JC at all and think he has been terrible in this time of crisis (better in the last week though).

My opinion has been formed through what I see watching the news etc. I do not buy newspapers and tend to read guardian / independent online as I despise the Mail / Express and think the power they have over the public is appalling. Wake up people and realise you are being manipulated.

The most important issue of our lifetime is Brexit. I will ignore everything else when I go to vote.

The most important thing for me is to unseat my Tory MP. A more self serving twat you will never meet. And I can't even say hes a good local MP. Hes not. His pic is started to be in the paper more - I wonder why!!

I think it may be Labour candidate who will have most chance of challenging him. So she will have my vote.

If it was LD's then they would have my vote.

Corbyn wouldn't last that long as PM anyway.

eurochick · 07/09/2019 09:46

I'm not sure why this has turned into a thread attacking me when so many others have posted.

Yes, the Telegraph is a Tory rag. It was the first google hit that came up and at 3am I wasn't planning on conducting research for you. I put (among others) in my post to indicate other reports of this are available. You have the same access to the internet that I do. Here's another source, indicating that the rate would rise from 19% to 26%. Whilst still fairly low by global standards, it's a 36% increase on the current rate, which in my work qualifies as "whopping".
www.adamsmith.org/blog/the-effect-of-labours-corporation-tax

The question was why a Remain supporter wouldn't vote for Corbyn. I gave my views. Others might have different views.

A Corbyn-led Labour Party is too left wing FOR ME to support. Others might love his policies. That's the joy of democracy - we can all express our views through the ballot box. I currently feel politically homeless as a centrist when the two main parties have moved far from the centre ground, but would probably put a tick in the box for the Lib Dems if there is an election soon.

BertrandRussell · 07/09/2019 10:19

@eurochick- if you cite the Telegraph as a reliable source of Labour Party policy, you are opening yourself up to a bit of comeback!

detachablehoof · 07/09/2019 10:26

@BertrandRussell sorry don't want to give specifics, but he has perpetrated lies (in Parliament!) about my Christian group.

BertrandRussell · 07/09/2019 10:28

You don’t want to give specifics about something somebody said in Parliament? Broadcast in full on television and recorded word for word in Hansard?? Grin

Breathlessness · 07/09/2019 10:37

Plymouth Brethren.

BertrandRussell · 07/09/2019 10:38

Because saying “Also he is the only MP who has ever stood up in Parliament and ranted a load of hateful lies about the religious group I belong to.” and then refusing to say when so it can be looked up sounds a lot like bearing false witness to me.

Thehagonthehill · 07/09/2019 10:42

Because I have no idea on the policies for Brexit.
He has always been anti EU and favours a customs union.But now he is Leader of his party we have no idea what could happen.
I also think he has been weak on anti-Semitism when he should have been strong.

Milkywayfan · 07/09/2019 10:45

I went off corbyn completely when I listened to the audio of the NEC about anti Semitism. Appalling things said by Pete Willsman went unchallenged by Corbyn. Direct evidence. And terrifying for implications for any ethnic minority group and indeed any group.. feel same about Tory Islamophobia. Also corbyn is a Brexiteer.
Eurochick if you are a centrist then definitely Lib Dems this time. Not perfect but have great merit of being reasonably sane. May be very odd place I might just consider labour with nose held for tactical reasons but Lib Dem. now almost equal in polls

eurochick · 07/09/2019 11:26

The Lib Dem stance on women is currently a shambles but I feel that Brexit is the more immediate issue, so I will likely hold my nose and go yellow.

Beachcomber · 07/09/2019 12:15

Sorry eurochick, I don't want you to feel attacked. I just joined the thread around the time you posted about corporation tax and your comment stood out to me as being fairly typical of the things people say about Labour.

I apologize in advance for using your post as an example (and there are no doubt numerous other posts in a similar vein on this thread that would provoke a similar thought process in me).

You said in your post that one of the reasons you would not vote Labour is due to "whopping tax increases on corporations". You said that this information is in their manifesto. So I looked it up in the manifesto which I happened to be looking at anyway and it turns out that there is no mention of a desire to implement huge increases on corporate tax (and indeed there is a desire to lower it for small businesses).

So then you linked to a Telegraph article about these "whopping increases". I admit I didn't read it because I didn't want to sign up to the Telegraph but myself and other posters pointed out that the Telegraph is known to be biased against Labour and an unreliable source (which IMO is outrageous for such a mainstream and serious publication).

Then you were kind enough to link to the Adam Smith publication which one would hope would be responsible and neutral. So I read the article and it doesn't say that Labour plans unreasonable or whopping increases (it questions whether the increases would translate to the increase in revenue that Labour predict which seems a fair point to me).

What the article says about the increase is this :
The Labour party has proposed increasing corporation tax to 26%, from its current rate of 19%, and in contrast to the government’s proposed reduction to 17%.

That would leave the UK with a tax rate one and a half times the level the government is proposing, putting us around the middle of European corporate tax rates rather than near the bottom (although still the lowest in the G7).

The reason I am pointing all of this out is not to get at you personally. It's because I think our exchange on this thread illustrates the influence of the press bias really well. People like to make out that Labour are currently ultra left wing to the point of a vindictive type of communism and / or that they are financially incompetent and that they wish to implement an ultra left wing economic policy to the detriment of the economy for ideological reasons.

But reality does not bear this out - as we can see from the quote I posted from your link. Having the lowest corporation tax in the G7 and a middling rate compared to the rest of Europe is not "whopping increases on corporation tax", nor is it particularly left wing.

It's a shame such falsehoods are perpetuted about Labour, Corbyn and McDonnell because they have some really solid, sensible, fair policies which are absolutely typical of our European counterparts.

But they will no doubt never get to see the light of day as the English voting public is currently dominanted by right wing eurosceptics who mock socialism and vote for right wing ultra capitalist populism. And our mainstream media encourages them.

It's a sad state of affairs.

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