Westminstenders: Game On?

[RedToothBrush]

Johnson has had prorogation approved by the Queen.

There has been widespread outrage and horror both in the UK and in Europe. Johnson has ripped up the principle of Liberal democracy even if constitutionally what he has done is legal. In shredding convention and the 'gentlemans agreement' of understanding we teeter on the edge of democratic collapse.

Talk is tha Dominic Cummings is persuing a game theory principle of deliberately putting us on collision course with the EU. The idea being that they will blink first because the alternative of what will happen is just too awful for them to allow. The idea is to force others to make the moves whilst Johnson appears principled and strong, even without a proper strategy and plan for a deal.

And there is the rub. Despite all the Talk of no deal, at some point a deal MUST be made, regardless of whether its before or after 31st October. There is no sense of what that could be and how it could be done. And then there's the prospect of a US deal which suffers from the same lack of tangibility.

All there is, is how things look for a General Election. Nothing else.

Johnson is pitching for an election with no sense of what's needed for Brexit - including the legislation needed for no deal. Not to forget that Cummings, strategist that he is, apparently isn't here for the long haul, only being contracted until 31st October, when he goes for surgery he postponed to take on this job.

So what's the plan for Johnson Post Cummings? Or is he going to do even more 'winging it'.

Meanwhile there's an awful lot of moderate Tory MPs getting very nervous and already failing to stick to the Cummings script.

Johnson, until there is an election is going to firmly blow hot and cool, trying to play to the hopes and fears of leavers and remainers to keep them hanging on to hope and the notion that x or y will happen, when x and y can't possibly both happen because they are completely opposing strategies. Hope leads us blindly to stumble like fools into his trap and to win his reelection.

Next week looks very bumpy indeed. Chances are this thread won't make it past Saturday...

In order to stand in another constituency, he would have to stand down as MP for Ruislip first.

Once an election is called, they all cease to be MPs. So I would assume, but don't 100% know, that at this stage Johnson could say that he's not standing again in Uxbridge and Ruislip, then the next thing we would know is that his name appears on the list of candidates for - whichever seat.

chmalungma

Should not be necessary in a normal country in Europe though?

Any examples of where this type of fightback was necessary anywhere within the EU?

Yellow vests are not anti EU before you might start!

flippin Parliament is dissolved 25 working days before a GE and MPs are no longer MPs

So if BJ thinks he might lose his deat, he would just have to be parachuted into a safe seat before the closing date for nominations

In any case, the PM remains as caretaker until the new PM - if it is someone different - takes office

(legally, the PM doesn't have to be an MP and could be a member of the HoL, as in the past, so long as he has a majority in the HoC
However, that would be politically unacceptable in modern times)

For anyone wanting to protest, there's a twitter account listing protests (I'll find the address and post it).

In London, Another Europe is organising daily protests from 5:30 onwards.

You can find details of those by following Stop the Coup of Another Europe on twitter.

(Sorry I've been away so long - real life and losing passwords intervened. I'm so, so glad you've kept this going. You're amazing.)

Woo hoo ! cat

I worry about the ambivalence of many in UK regarding this prorogation.

Do many realise the implications of this for future parliaments? We all know that the UK Constitution is not written down anywhere, but is based on precedent. So go figure for the future if this prorogation succeeds.

Any Government in power from now on can do it also for any reason.

OK, @BENEFITS_NEWS are carrying/tweeting the map but that's not the organisation.

Can't find it right now. Will post it when I do.

Basically, I think it's time to get out on the streets - if that's possible for you.

I don't think I've been this depressed about politics, ever. And I lived and protested through the Tbatcher years. ☹️

Hello woman. I've missed you - and thought of you a lot. 🙂

We've won other battles cat
Keep the faith.

"Any examples of where this type of fightback was necessary anywhere within the EU?"

Hungary and Poland are much further along the way

• again the problem is that the populists keep voting in rightwing authoritarian governments.

Neither are dictatorships in the sense of holding down the majority, but democracy is also about repecting the rights of minorities and of the political opposition

Unlike the UK, both countries suffered decades under dictatorship, which destroyed their political and social fabric, so they started off way behind the West in those areas.

They had far less democratic tradition to draw on than we do and couldn't restart democracy securely after the USSR fell.

There is no such excuse for the UK

• a country which had what was the #5 economy in the world and that has had democracy ever since universal suffrage -

to support or accept an authoritarian rightwing - or leftwing - govt

It would be wilful stupidity and the country would suffer the consequences that such wilful stupidity brings

Hopefully our democratic traditions are sufficiently strong for the fightback to stop this authoritarianism

We are having a local protest on Tuesday, although I don't expect to be able to go. So I think the protests will continue, but we will have to see what next week brings.

The "winner takes all" tradition in UK politics is quite dangerous in such a situation

It can be taken as licence to do everything not legally forbidden, which with all the holes in our Constitution, is quite a lot

We had our summer barbecue at the gym today and at the table I was sitting, everyone suddenly started saying how much they liked my English accent

Hasn't happened in over 30 years in Germany , on and off
My accent is very strong and probably NOT attractive at all

I think they are starting to feel very sorry for us and this was their way of expressing sympathy and solidarity

carrcenter.hks.harvard.edu/news/35-rule-how-small-minority-can-change-world

Worth reposting this.

At the end of the day we on fora like this are just powerless regarding the shitstorm that is going on now in Westminster.

I often wonder if they have our country or their Party as a priority.

Apileofballyhoo Thank you for posting that. I needed it.

For what it's worth, I'm leafleting tube stations this week and joining the London demonstration on Wednesday evening.

I can't let this happen without a fight.

I often wonder if they have our country or their Party as a priority.

May had the Party as a priority, although I suspect that she thought what was good for the Tory party was good for the country.

Johnson is only interested in himself, and the unelected Cummings is just a wrecker.

Funny how our Leave posters aren't saying anything about Cummings, especially when they had so much to say about the unelected EU.

After trying to have a Brexit free afternoon I've been catching up on this thread.

If I've read correctly, I very much agree with @DGRossetti post at 16.31. I was saying to anyone who'd listen my family only the other week, that a lot of people have missed the fact we have had decades of not having a really good war that we could get stuck into with obvious goodies and baddies. Invoking the "Britain alone against the rest of the world" attitude and the "blitz spirit" that is easily brought to mind by people who were barely (or not even slightly) born at the time of the last war. Everyone pulling together pluckily, everyone knowing there place, no criminals in Britain (yeah, right), clearly demarcated Enemy. Then you knew where you stood 🇬🇧. We all stand together.

So, fighting the EU is comforting to people, it's our de facto war. This has been fabulously tapped into by Leave.

God help us!

I thought that wiser heads than Trump’s had said if we crash out, breaking the gf agreement, there would be no trade deals with the US.
And something completely different.
There were protests outside parliament in Budapest when I was there 10 years ago. That wasn’t long after they had joined the eu and I thought the protesters were very brave as I’d seen how authoritarian the country used to be before it was part of the eu
It was at the end of the working day and many people were scurrying into the Metro station not wanting to be seen as being involved.

Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn

Is the Tory party on the verge of a historic split this week?
< I wish >

Seems so, if Boris goes ahead with his deselection threat.

Rebels' spokesman tonight:
"This is about the national interest.
We've moved beyond the point where threats will persuade people to abandon their principles".

Peregrina.

of course l agree that Leavers will never criticise Cummings who is unelected but is running the show now. But that suits them I suppose. Deflects from Johnson in real life.

Makes their criticism of other so called "unelected" a rubbish argument now though really. And on we go...

Interesting developments

Alex Wickham
@alexwickham
Confirmed: No10 has decided Philip Hammond, David Gauke, Dominic Grieve and co will have the Conservative whip withdrawn if they do not vote with the government on Tuesday

Also:

Rory Stewart
@RoryStewartUK
·
14m
Replying to
@alexwickham
And me too I hope

So this all seems to have cranked up again in the last hour or so while I was watching the horrific Harvey Weinstein programme.

I think there's a good few Tory MPs now on Tuesday (who are rich enough already, Gauke, Hammond, Grieve and the like) might think fuck it, resign the whip/their Tory mumbership and vote against the government.

How many times do I say on this thread, just when we thought we'd reached the peak of the madness, off we go again!

Tuesday is going to be fascinating and I suspect I am going to do no work whatsoever, it's a good job that I work in a very political/laid back office and everybody else is just and interested as I am.

I also noted this evening with sadness that we go away not long after New Year and abiding by the 6 months left on your passport rule I might be the first in my family to get a blue one

I have just this afternoon written to both Stewart and Grieve to say, please carry on, and don't be cowed.

I would love to see them all cross the floor on Tuesday, and sit as Independents, or Independent Conservatives and whoosh Johnson's majority even with the DUP and Kate Hoey and perhaps a couple of other Labour people is Gone.

As I posted, maybe on the protest thread - one of the speakers who impressed me most at Saturday's demo in Oxford was the man who had been the Conservative Agent for Bracknell and had been committed to the party for 20 years. He is now going to work to get Johnson and his cabal out - they are not Conservatives in his book, but Nationalists.

The arguments I am going to use with a Leaver (we managed during the War) friend, is which of these people are men of integrity, Grieve, Stewart, Johnson or Farage? Second argument will be, would you find this behaviour acceptable if Corbyn tried it on? 3) who are we at war with now? If I get knee jerk answers I will probably let the friendship drift.