All threads in brexit seem to anti brexit? Mn is usually balanced... Were are pro b threads?

[Knittedjimmychoos]

Looking for some lighter brexit relief by fellow leavers... Every thread I've glanced at seems to be dominated by renainers?

Is there any space for leaver on here?

Just interested... I wanted to chat...

[jackparlabane]

@birdonawire1 Of course, but in practise it can take longer for some countries to get their act together, eg if every widget factory is going to need to do x, and a couple countries have thousands of widget factories and only a few inspectors who can confirm they have done x, that country may be late in confirming they've upgraded all their factories - but having the EU law and the fines from infraction proceedings racking up daily will kick them up the arse into ensuring it gets done faster. Eg the UK, who were the 'dirty man of Europe' in the 80s, finally reaching legal standards for clean beaches and rivers.
Saying every other country ignores laws when it suits, and that the UK always complies, are both bollocks.

I'd love to believe that the UK will push for much stronger environmental regulations once out of the EU, but the past 20 years doesn't bode well for it.

The only logical argument I've seen for Brexit is that allowing Europeans to move to the UK, but not people from the rest of the world, is racist, and immigration should be open equally to anyone if they have skills we want. Though as many other Brexit voters want migrants from Asia and Africa even less than they want Europeans, it isn't going to help in agreeing a Brexit - Brexit fans want at least five different incompatible Brexit, none of which solve the Irish Border problem.

[Icantreachthepretzels]

It's unelected officials making policies ignored by many eu countries but adhered to by us

We literally just held elections to elect our representatives at the EU in may. Those elected representatives have just held votes to see who should hold what position. If you mean the EU equivalent of the civil service - they're not making the policy, they are the paper pushers doing the background work. Like the civil service.
If other countries are getting away with EU policy and we follow it to our detriment ... the question has to be asked why don't we just ignore it too? That's on us not them. And if everyone else is ignoring it and we're the only ones sticking to it ... is that really happening, or is it Daily mail frothing? And if the policies are so bad - why did we vote for them? You can check the records -we have got our own way well over 90% of the time - if you don't like what the British representatives at the EU said they wanted - leaving the EU will not help. It will still be a British government in charge. And they do have a history of creating bad policy of their own (austerity, Iraq) , or over-implementing EU law, adding unnecessary bits to make them tighter and then blaming the EU when it's unpopular. They're not going to row back on any of that.
We also have a veto - so anything we don't like ... veto.

won't have that anymore once we're gone. But if we have any kind of deal with them there will be rules and regulations we have to follow - and we will no longer have the strength or power to dictate those terms.

A second referendum is a betrayal of democracy (however ill conceived the first one was)
Do you look at every balls up in every sphere of life and just shrug your shoulders and say 'better to plough on ahead' instead of trying to fix it? We know the leave campaign lied, we know they broke the law, they didn't promise us anything concrete - so no one can claim they voted for what we're getting, except no one was talking about jeopardising our place in the single market - and now we're having the hardest of hard brexits. So actually - leavers are not getting what they were promised at the time, not what they voted for - no matter how hard they try to rewrite their own personal history to pretend they knew what they were voting for.

Is there any other area in life where a bad idea, based on lies and given three years to implement and failing miserably would be refused a second chance to fix it - and instead plough on ahead regardless? Does anyone actually think that sounds sensible?

[JustAnotherPoster00]

Icantreachthepretzels

So very well put

[birdonawire1]

OP. As you can see from the posts I have been called a racist because I have made my leave post about immigration.

This despite the fact I have said I am in favour of the millions who have come in from the EU to live and work here, but because I have said I am unhappy about free movement of criminal gangs from Eastern Europe.

So I'm out. I can't be bothered wasting my time trying to have a reasoned debate when Remainers resort immediately to name calling.

Deleted off my threads and feed so I won't be responding or reading further posts. Yet another Leave voter shut down and an example of why you see no leave voters on MN.

[Peregrina]

If we don't agree with a general election result should we vote again?

That's effectively what happens normally with a hung Parliament - there isn't enough agreement and no one can form a government, so they call another GE. Harold Wilson formed a minority Government but then called an election, which he won narrowly. May stitched up her Confidence and Supply deal with the DUP, but it's always been shaky, and with Johnson as PM he is highly unlikely to see the Government last until 2022. We will also gloss over his comments about how Gordon Brown should have called a GE when he took over. The Labour party at the time had a comfortable majority.

[bellinisurge]

"Yet another Leave voter shut down and an example of why you see no leave voters on MN."
Because they ignore the NI border issue which is the ONLY reason we aren't out already.

[Peregrina]

Specifically as anyone who does a search can see, no-one has called birdonawire racist. She(?) herself started with ' I am not a racist'.

As I read it jackparlabane agrees that the argument for not allowing the rest of the word can be seen as racist, but then points out that a lot of Brexiters desire immigrants from Africa and Asia even less than those from Europe.

But we have a Leaver flounce, because a Leaver has chosen to take offence at something which was not said.

[Bearbehind]

As you can see from the posts I have been called a racist because I have made my leave post about immigration.

Except no one did call you racist.

I actually think that, deep down, those who voted because of immigration know their reasons are fundamentally racist, hence the paranoia about being called out on it.

[Heratnumber7]

Nobsggypants. Rumbled 😀

[CrunchyCarrot]

@JustAnotherPoster00 - I don't vote Tory, ever, can't stand them. I am a swing voter between Lib Dems and Labour, but prefer Labour. I voted Lib Dem in 2015. Faux outrage? There's nothing false about it. Thing is, I have always been pretty naive politically and I believed a lot of what I heard during the Leave campaign, and some of it resonated with me, that's why I voted as I did. However over the months after the vote, I began to be far more aware of the reality of what was going on and what would likely happen after Brexit. Note that at the same time I was diagnosed with a serious autoimmune condition which also influenced my changing views.

I know I can't convince people I regret my vote, but I do. I am particularly horrified by how savage and bitter people have become over it. People have their reasons as to why they voted as they did, we do have to respect that, we don't have to like it. People also can change their minds. The main thing now is we try not to tear each other down even further, it really won't help.

[JustAnotherPoster00]

Sorry if you thought I meant you CrunchyCarrot I think my ire is meant for those who specifically voted for the 2015 tories, I can understand why some people voted to leave because of the societal inequality they felt and continue to feel and no conservative government ever will seek to address that just continue to sow division

[daphine2004]

One thing that I believe can be agreed on by all leavers and remainers is that we are in the shit, and nobody who is in a position of authority can agree a sensible way forward. Nobody appears to be getting what they want - I get they can’t make everyone happy. However, the uncertainty is impacting on lives now, yet our status in Europe is technically unchanged.

It’s unfair on all voters to keep going around in circles, pushing deadlines etc.

Regardless of which way you voted, I’d like us all to have a people’s vote on the type of Brexit we want to take forward, based on what’s available. I don’t personally understand why people have an issue with agreeing what way to move forward when we are potentially going to end up in a situation which is harmful (crashing out with no deal) to the majority of the people in the country.

[BackInTime]

A second referendum is a betrayal of democracy (however ill conceived the first one was). The best people like me can hope for is a super soft Brexit which continues free movement, a tightening up of the law to deport people who are not legitimately here, eu reform to stop stupidities like upping sticks and moving the EU headquarters on a regular basis and a slow slow return to national harmony

How is giving people a vote after 3 plus years since the last vote 'a betrayal of democracy'? How is talk of proroguing parliament to force through a version of Brexit that was not on the original ballot I paper democratic? Is a PM elected by a tiny minority of white middle class males over 65 democratic? Is risking peace in NI and break up of the United Kingdom likely to restore national harmony?

[bellinisurge]

It's dead simple. Fix NI border and we can Leave. Don't fix it and the consequences are on you.
Here's the fix I have been peddling for ages: Border in the sea; NI is a special economic zone into which all the necessary fudge needed to leave but save GFA is put.
DUP can suck it up for the greater good and, if they play their cards right, be a big fish in a little bowl for longer.

[Bearbehind]

Here's the fix I have been peddling for ages: Border in the sea; NI is a special economic zone into which all the necessary fudge needed to leave but save GFA is put.

And then Scotland will want the same.......that’s not a realistic solution.

[HateIsNotGood]

As a Leaver I agree with bellins suggestion. I also somewhat agree with BoJo's suggestion of 'the UK won't put up a Border' (the only thing I might agree with him on). This could be part of his 'stance' on attempting to open up negs with the EU or go No Deal if they won't.

It's a bit 'who blinks first' but I do really like the idea of No Border and if one goes up it will be because the EU put it there and not the UK. If it leads to any cross-non-border 'smuggling' of differently priced goods, it doesn't bother me at all, after all it shouldn't bother most people except for the Govt Tax Collectors.

[bellinisurge]

Scotland cannot realistically compare itself to NI. It would be betrayed by Brexit for a different reason.

[Bearbehind]

but I do really like the idea of No Border and if one goes up it will be because the EU put it there and not the UK

FFS - do you still not understand that is not how it works?

[bellinisurge]

@HateIsNotGood , to trade under WTO rules you have to be in control of your economic area. This "we won't put up a border" willy waving is bollocks and both sides know it. That's why the backstop is there.

[HateIsNotGood]

FFS - does anyone know how it works? Why is it so impossible to create a 'special exemption' for the border. What is wrong with refusing to put up a border?

[bellinisurge]

What is wrong with refusing to but up a border is, apart from everything else, you are in violation of WTO rules if you don't have control of your economic area.
That's why making NI a special economic zone can sort this. It is not beyond them to create a fudge but the border between EU and UK then needs to be in the sea .

[DioneTheDiabolist]

It's a bit 'who blinks first' but I do really like the idea of No Border and if one goes up it will be because the EU put it there and not the UK.
If you really like the idea of No Border then Remaining will deliver that.

[HateIsNotGood]

As I posted earlier - I agree a sea border would work best, then second best I go for no border. As for 'thems the rulez' - I don't mind the UK going rogue on WTO by refusing to put up a border. If 'The World' of man-made borders wants to penalize the UK for trying to keep Peace that's fine by me.

If I could get away from my responsibilities (unlikely) I'd be more than game to go wave my tits around whilst carrying a Peace Symbol Flag.

[bellinisurge]

@HateIsNotGood , you know how people get pissed off with EU rules- then you would be really pissed off if you fuck with WTO rules. The clue is in the W bit.
We cannot make ANY deals with ANYONE if we don't comply with WTO rules.