All threads in brexit seem to anti brexit? Mn is usually balanced... Were are pro b threads?

[Knittedjimmychoos]

Looking for some lighter brexit relief by fellow leavers... Every thread I've glanced at seems to be dominated by renainers?

Is there any space for leaver on here?

Just interested... I wanted to chat...

[timeforakinderworld]

I remember being called liar over the EU Army, yet they do want it.
See again, who is THEY in this sentence? Some people may want an army, some want closer shared military operations, some don't want anything. These things aren't imposed from above, they are negotiated together. You talk as if we had no say in any decisions when in fact we got almost everything we wanted!

[MeganBacon]

Whilst I agree that the single currency, federalism, enforced austerity and uncontrolled free movement are not good for the EU, the fact is that we in the UK weren't paying the price of any of those things. We actually benefitted from being in the EU because we had the benefits of a trading block without Schengen, without single currency etc.. So we are paying a very high price by exiting and for what? It will not actually help the EU reform, the Europeans at the sharp end of the next crisis will be in no better position than the Greeks were last time. I agree we weren't listened to before either, all this talk of using the veto/EU parliament is meaningless because all decisions were and will remain political. They will move increasingly towards federalism and the appointments of UvdL and Lagarde both indicate this clearly, and they have absolutely no choice about that because of the weaknesses of the construct of the EU. So the position is that we are massively weakened (short term at least) by being out and we haven't really managed to make a point about any of the above. Long term, it may be an advantage, but absolutely no-one knows if the pain of the short term will compensate for that, and the pain will not be evenly distributed.

[Oranginna]

I agree with most of your post MeganBacon. However, I am more optimistic than you about leaving and more wary than you about the risks of staying and propping up an undemocratic inflexible organisation, which is becoming quite despotic.
Not a popular view on MN but I think we will thrive outside.

[Oranginna]

And some people in the UK certainly have been paying the price of uncontrolled free movement.

[1tisILeClerc]

{I remember being called liar over the EU Army, yet they do want it.}

The armies of all the sovereign members of the EU already train and work together worldwide and that will continue. The intention of some is that the command structure would be modified and probably a bit more standardisation of equipment to make their efforts more efficient.
There would be tensions in working out who would be 'in charge' overall with the UK wanting to be at the top.
SOME would like a proposed rearrangement, some are less keen but you can be sure that individual voters will not get the choice.

Leavers seem to be past masters at seeing one thing that gives them a 'bee in their bonnet' which they then conflate to the whole of the EU. No large (or even small) organisation is perfect. It is unlikely that your partner will be 'perfect' all day every day for the whole of your lives together.

[Peregrina]

The character of England and Wales and the spirit of the EU just don't seem compatible.

The character of North Wales and that of Tory southern England are completely different and I have lived in both. What exactly is the 'spirit of the EU' that troubles you, are you really trying to suggest that the indentities of say Malta and Sweden have been subsumed, so there is no longer a distinctive Scandinavian spirit in Sweden, and a Mediterranean vibe in Malta?

The EU top brass just rejected the MEPs spitzenkandidats and just imposed their choice, Ursula instead.

I believe that Theresa May was one casting her vote for her.

I do too but I don't want to collaborate in a project that I don't approve of.

I don't want an American President dictating who our Ambassador to Washington should be, but I was never asked whether I wanted a Government which kowtowed to him slavishly.

[Oranginna]

I was never asked whether I wanted a Government which kowtowed to him slavishly
And you will soon be able to vote them out.

[1tisILeClerc]

{undemocratic inflexible organisation, which is becoming quite despotic. }

Both inaccurate, the democracy within the EU is not greatly different and arguably better than the UK but to describe the EU as being despotic is an insult to many who have lived under such a regime and are desperate to have a better life.
The worst that the UK has had to suffer is rationing and some shortages during the world wars, nothing like the starvation and horrific regimes experienced across much of Europe.

Unless you have watched your family members die through malnutrition and freezing to death you need to temper your language.

[Quellium]

No Deal sounds brilliant.

Priorities after No Deal:

1. Medicine
2. Medical Devices
3. Fresh Food
4. Nuclear power plant parts
5. Chemicals for drinking water

I will be saving on stamps at Christmas then because I know exactly who wants this shit. Finally, an advantage.

Tell me it's Project Fear. And then have a little think about how the people you know are going to feel about you when it turns out not to be.

[Peregrina]

And you will soon be able to vote them out.
Not until 2022 under the present rules. I will certainly do my utmost.

[DGRossetti]

And some people in the UK certainly have been paying the price of uncontrolled free movement.

Uncontrolled - but by whom ? It was always within the powers of the UK government to apply restrictions to EU coming to the UK. Why blame the EU for the UK government unless you're not really thinking things through ?

[Peregrina]

Quellium - we will need to channel the WW2 spirit.

I remember watching the TV with my grandma, and some prog about the war came on and civilians were being told to boil their water for 15 minutes to ensure it was safe to drink. By which time, grandma commented, it had all boiled away!

[1tisILeClerc]

{5. Chemicals for drinking water}
Oh shit.
If this is only the 5th in priority it is clear that the UK will be fucked.
No amount of medication will help if you have a few cities that receive contaminated water. Clean water is the first priority in any survival scenario.

[DGRossetti]

I do too but I don't want to collaborate in a project that I don't approve of.

Which for many people in the UK today describes the current government of the UK. And you know something ? If Leavers are so willing to hang the fate of the country on their wafer thin "majority", then I'm willing to side with the bigger majority of people who didn't vote for a Tory clusterfuck led by a racist buffoon. How that might work out in practice I don't know. But it will be interesting to see how much "consent" Boris gets from the population to rule them.

[Peregrina]

Which for many people in the UK today describes the current government of the UK

Which I will remind you, is being propped up by a party that no one in Great Britain could vote for, and half of N Ireland won't vote for.

[Danetobe]

If you are opposed to shared EU defence capabilities (an 'EU army') the most effective way to stop it is to remain a member and Oppose decisively from within. I'm sure there are many small EU27 countries crying out for leadership in this way. The EU will continue. The little countries appreciate the UK as a reliably eurosceptic voice in the institutions (not parliament exactly). Leaving is not the answer.

[bellinisurge]

Filter water through a T-shirt then hard rolling boil for a minute.

[Oranginna]

Peregrina. I share your contempt for the current shambolic arrangement with the DUP but it's not going to last long. We have regular elections and we often change direction quite dramatically. I'm happy with that. It's not perfect or efficient but I understand the way it works. I don't understand or trust the way the EU works. It seems to me to be a kind of hegemony where the most powerful nation decides what's best and the others are bribed/persuaded to go along with it ... whether it's good for them or not. And if the imposed policies are unpopular with the people of some countries, that's tough because the comissioners know best.

[Oranginna]

Danetobe. I respect what you are saying but I don't want to stay in the EU being eurosceptic. It's so negative. I want to leave and be positive.

[Oranginna]

Danetobe. What do the Danes you know think of the Danish dentist in the Brexit Party? If they've noticed him.

[DGRossetti]

Filter water through a T-shirt then hard rolling boil for a minute.

You need energy to boil water. If the infrastructure can't deliver clean water, I wouldn't have much confidence it could deliver clean (or any) energy.

[ContinuityError]

If you are opposed to shared EU defence capabilities (an 'EU army')

Shared defence capabilities is covered by PESCO - membership of which is entirely voluntary. The UK chose not to participate.

An EU army can only be created by unanimous agreement of the European Council and ratification by each member state.

[1tisILeClerc]

{Filter water through a T-shirt then hard rolling boil for a minute.}

Yes of course for a limited quantity but my point was rather that if a wide area is contaminated once it is in the system it can cause havoc trying to eradicate it at a time when there will be a lot of other strains.
As a single 'failing' yes trucking in water is possible, but many other services are likely to be being hit at around the same time.
Like a motorway pile up, although the initial incident may be relatively minor, it does not take long for there to be a complete mess.

{It seems to me to be a kind of hegemony where the most powerful nation decides what's best and the others are bribed/persuaded to go along with it }
So the wishes of the Scots, Welsh, in fact many of the UK regions, get crapped on by Westminster where many don't seem to know or care about life outside London. At least the EU try to work constructively in a collaborative framework. The EP does not have full control of the sovereign states and all legislation passed by the EP has to be ratified and enforced by the individual sovereign parliaments. This in itself causes delays and variance in what the citizens of Europe experience but is necessary.
Europe through the centuries has experienced significant domination from time to time and they (we) aren't keen.

[DGRossetti]

I don't understand or trust the way the EU works

You could substitute "nuclear power" or "blood chemistry" or "jet aircraft" for "EU" in that sentence and it would be just as accurate. Yet you use electricity, take medicines, and use aeroplanes - where a failure could lead to death.

If understanding something is needed before we can trust it (and where does that leave the UKs political constitution ) then either people in the UK are all fucking geniuses, or they are peculiarly selective in how they place their trust to the extent that some might suggest they are a bit dim.

I know where I'd place my money, as we are taxing along the runway.

[Isthisafreename]

@Oranginna - I share your contempt for the current shambolic arrangement with the DUP but it's not going to last long.

I think that is one of the biggest problems with the UK electoral system. Countries within the UK, other than England, really only get a proper say when neither of the two biggest parties have an overall majority. While labour and the conservatives run in the other countries, in NI and Scotland they are a minority of MPs. Even though Wales return mainly from UK wide parties, those parties don't really do much for them. Brexit is a case in point. Three of the 5 (including Gibraltar) electoral areas voted stay but the opinion of two who voted yes over rides them.

The UK electoral system is doing a very good job of breaking up the union. Brexit is just the catalyst.