Can people/Remainers explain what they are tying to achieve with Revoke?

[EggAndButter]

I initially wanted to post on AIBU but I didn’t have the guts and thought it wouod just be moved anyway...

I’m getting tired of Brexit.
Tired of the lies and dreams of the Leave side.
But just as tired of the dreams and wishful thinking of the Remain side.

So I am asking Remainers on here

What do you expect to achieve with Revoke?

How are you planning to deal with the Leave side being left down?
How will you deal with the inevitable instability coming with Revoke? There will a lot of very angry People around.... people who will be feeling left down. People in the north who have always being feeling that the South and London never listens to them and that this is another proof they don’t. And being sure that you have the ‘right’ solution isn’t going to be enough.

I have the same questions for Leavers btw. It’s just that the answer seems to always be ‘that’s the will of the people. Just suck it up’ :(

As we are going deeper and deeper into this brexit mess, it’s clear that there is one way to go back to what the U.K. has. That ship has well and truly sailed.
It’s also clear that No Deal will be a nightmare.

So the only way out I can see is a deal. A deal that will worse for the U.K. than being in the EU. A deal that both sides ‘will just have to suck it up’.
A deal where no one will be truly happy because the other solutions (No Deal or Revoke) just aren’t possible. But the only way out until the U.K. can sort itself out, its political system that has more or less collapsed, its priorities in the middle of a climate crisis, social issues, poverty and economic downturn, its press. (Whilst crossing fingers that whilst it’s doing that, no one will use that opportunity to take power -Trump style for example)

Not feeling very positive about it all. But even less so when I see both sides just sticking to their mantra and refusing to accept that, basically, they have both lost the game.

I want revoke because I don’t accept that any deal will leave us better off than remaining.
I’m not happy to just accept a deal that leaves us worse off as a country just to honour a referendum that was flawed and conducted illegally.
The country is already divided no option is going to please everyone but at least staying as we are won’t be ruinous to everyone.
At the very least we need a people’s vote to ensure that people still want to leave now that all the facts are known.

Not feeling very positive about it all. But even less so when I see both sides just sticking to their mantra and refusing to accept that, basically, they have both lost the game.
It’s not over until we’ve left. Until then there is everything to fight for.

I can't say I give too much of a shit about how 99% of leave voters feel to be perfectly honest.

Ps I don’t think the EU is wonderful but membership is better than anything else that’s on the table.
I’m not wedded to membership no matter what and if the deal had of been better I would have said fine let’s go but that’s not the position we’re in.

Because the initial vote was too simplistic - we all knew what Remain meant, but a vote for leave was just a nebulous idea. Just how nebulous was proved when Leave won and none of those who had been promoting leave (Boris et al) wanted to take the reins. After more than two years trying to decide what Leave actually means a deal has been cobbled together which no-one can agree on. Still no-one from Leave has come forward with any better idea and it is becoming clearer and clearer that noone from Leave can actually agree what they were voting for. I don't see a problem with revisiting the question - much as you might do with any decision after you'd done a bit of research. You want to buy a house - a survey shows the foundations are rotten and a nuclear power plant is planned in the next street. Do you go through with the sale just because you don't want to piss off the seller?

The decision should never have been given to the public in the first instance. Revoking article 50 and remaining a member state would correct that mistake.

You have to get firmly in your head that the WA (and PD) are NOT a deal.
They are just the starting point for what will be between 6 months (if a 'no deal' is called), and probably around 3 MORE years of painstaking negotiations. Of course the UK government will have to decide what future relationship it wants with the EU. They haven't even decided that part yet after 3 years.
The real show hasn't even started yet.
By Revoking, trade and laws etc can continue as they are currently doing.
You also need to remember that 'leaving' will not start to address the root causes of the significant UK problems, lack of investment into housing, NHS, transport etc.
The 'sovereignty' that was bandied about is a nebulous concept for the person on the street as NO ONE exists in a bubble with no external influences.

You see a lot of you are holding the exact position I dint understand.

Yes Revoke is economically, but not just that, the best solution. I’m not going to dispute that.

What I don’t understand is holding that position AND being unable to say how you will Deal with the half of the population that doesn’t agree with you.
That sounds like the Leavers ‘suck it up’ mantra that so many Remainers find arrogant and annoying.

So bar being sure you’re right and that Leave told lies and all the rest of it, all of which will NOT change the mind of the other half of the population, what are you going to do to make that transition easier?

I haven’t seen ANY Remain politicians mentioning that. Just that they will keep on fighting etc...
The reality is that, if you, Remainers, win, you will have to deal with a full on opposition from half the population and half f the MPs.
That’s not going to be any easier than for the Leavers.
That’s also going to split the population bust as much.
And antogonising people isn’t going to make Revoke and the EU anymore attractive to anyone (Remainers Or Leavers!)

On what basis do you think it is still half the population? A lot of former leave voters are now angry with the corrupt campaign they were fed.

Personally I don't want a revoke without another vote but I have sympathy for those calling for it given the irregularities of the referendum.

The people who want to leave aren't going anywhere. If we don't leave know, there'll still be several million people who will vote for whichever party promises "leave" in the next election, thus splitting the Labour/Tory votes just like UKIP did in 2010 which lead to the referendum promise by Cameron. The problem won't go away - it needs dealing with once and for all, or at least for a generation.

I’m not sure what you are asking. Revoke is, leagally, a definite possibility. The UK can revoke article 50 at any point and stay no questions asked. That’s want remainders want. And that is what they want to achieve. Anyone will to consider a deal whether it is the one we have now (which is not actually a permenant deal and the only one we are going to get so everyone should just agree and the transition set period can be used to hash out something more long term) or a softer version/no deal are currently arguing over that and therefore a holding some kind of brexit position even if they were originally pro remain.

I think there needs to be a people's vote on the currently available options. Even though I think there's a good chance the vote would not go my way (revoke). Just because that would, or ought, to give legitimacy to what is then finally done. It's not so difficult to understand that it makes sense to ask the people who are currently eligible to vote (not including those who have died since 2016), and who have more knowledge about what is available if we leave the EU than they did in 2016.
So much has been done for the Leavers - everything since 2016 has been about leaving the EU. At great cost to the country. And with a people's vote they have the chance to vote Leave again if that is what they still what. We were very clearly told that leaving would be easy, and put us in a better position than remaining. That is now clearly not the case. Let everyone vote on the current reality, not on past misselling.
I agree that Farage etc would lie again though. It is not a perfect solution.

Well, how are the vast majority of the population of our country who didn’t vote for Brexit being dealt with, OP? Apparently we don’t exist as all I hear is ‘the will of the people’.

You cannot put complex questions such as membership of the EU to a simplistic Yes/No vote. There will be 100, 1000 different versions of Brexit out there that Leavers had in their heads when they cast their vote. The government have absolutely no idea what ‘the will of the people is’.

And the shitshow that is the Irish border isn’t going anywhere.

@OddBodds there has been movement on both sides. A lot of people have changed their minds in light of what had happened since (including the clear unreality of what some people expect to happen, how the EU has behaved-this is me, I went from being indifferent to very very pro leave, dishonest in the leave campaign, disillusionment in the leave process, changes in personal circumstances, acceptance of the result etc etc).

As for the future. If we hard brexit, almost everyone in the UK will suffer, including most leavers. They will not be happy. They will be angry. Leaving will not leave half the population happy and validated. It will leave 99% of the population unhappy and angry. As life gets worse and worse, leavers finally realise they were played, and remainers continue to blame leavers.

I’m now agreeing with the whole people’s vote idea (horrible name though ffs, why are the British so wet for the hard left?). Parliament can’t seem to make up its mind on the deal that was negotiated and the decision in the ECEJ has cleared up the revoke option. I don’t think it should be a leave/stay vote though. I should be two stage maybe? Revoke/don’t revoke and then deal or no deal? At this point it seems to be the only way to come to a decision.

If we leave with a hard Brexit, I think that it will be very very difficult to go back, to re-join the EU. We will become controlled by the hard right, supported by the American hard right. They will make it impossible for us to re-join. The UK will be permanently fucked, basically. The position the UK is currently in is incredibly dangerous. Let's not pretend we can just turn things back round in 10 years' time.

And Scotland and NI will leave the Union - if they are allowed to by the nutters who will be in charge at Westminster.

@thethethe eh? What do you think is going to happen? Do you mean in the short term? Short term there are mounting concerns over another global financial meltdown anyway. Also overdue a recession. Not to mention the government has no money and too many people using services. The short term things will get worse regardless. Long term prospects are definitely better outside of the EU. EU economic policy is based on outdated science but they’re pressing on with it anyway. Definitely not heading in a good direction. Butter to cut ties now while it’s still possible surely?

And shouldn’t Scotland and NI be allowed to if that’s what they want? Maybe I’m missing something but why do the English want to keep them in the union beyond sentimentality/traditions sake?

Why do we need to “deal with” anyone?

At the moment there are a lot of people who are unhappy about leaving. There’s not much they can do - moan online, sign petitions, go on a march, vote for someone different next election, try not to worry about it too much and get on with their lives. That’s about it.

If we revoked it would be a different group of people doing that. Nothing to deal with.

I completely disagree with you Boggles. Far far better to be closely tied to our nearest neighbours. Strength in numbers - including in the context of trade. And personally I'm not ready to see my country ruled by self-serving right wing extremists. At the moment we have the civilising influence of countries like Germany and Sweden.

I'm quite fond of employment rights, for example.

Maybe we should let London become an independent nation state then?

{ EU economic policy is based on outdated science but they’re pressing on with it anyway. Definitely not heading in a good direction. Butter to cut ties now while it’s still possible surely?}

Strangely the EU is a democratic entity and things change, albeit a bit slowly at times. The concept of the UK being 'all powerful' and demanding good 'deals' from the USA or China is frankly ridiculous and they certainly don't have the best interests of the UK in mind. For the USA it would be just a 51st state and China can just do as it wishes.