Can people/Remainers explain what they are tying to achieve with Revoke?

[EggAndButter]

I initially wanted to post on AIBU but I didn’t have the guts and thought it wouod just be moved anyway...

I’m getting tired of Brexit.
Tired of the lies and dreams of the Leave side.
But just as tired of the dreams and wishful thinking of the Remain side.

So I am asking Remainers on here

What do you expect to achieve with Revoke?

How are you planning to deal with the Leave side being left down?
How will you deal with the inevitable instability coming with Revoke? There will a lot of very angry People around.... people who will be feeling left down. People in the north who have always being feeling that the South and London never listens to them and that this is another proof they don’t. And being sure that you have the ‘right’ solution isn’t going to be enough.

I have the same questions for Leavers btw. It’s just that the answer seems to always be ‘that’s the will of the people. Just suck it up’ :(

As we are going deeper and deeper into this brexit mess, it’s clear that there is one way to go back to what the U.K. has. That ship has well and truly sailed.
It’s also clear that No Deal will be a nightmare.

So the only way out I can see is a deal. A deal that will worse for the U.K. than being in the EU. A deal that both sides ‘will just have to suck it up’.
A deal where no one will be truly happy because the other solutions (No Deal or Revoke) just aren’t possible. But the only way out until the U.K. can sort itself out, its political system that has more or less collapsed, its priorities in the middle of a climate crisis, social issues, poverty and economic downturn, its press. (Whilst crossing fingers that whilst it’s doing that, no one will use that opportunity to take power -Trump style for example)

Not feeling very positive about it all. But even less so when I see both sides just sticking to their mantra and refusing to accept that, basically, they have both lost the game.

Given leavers about 10 years ran a competition to come up with a solution and couldn''t and then deleted all this info should tell you all you need to know.
Roland Smith prominent ex leaver is very eloquent about it.

Lets look at a few examples: Leave March, low numbers and railroaded by Tommy Robinson and his ilk. Arrests made. Remain March approx 3 million peaceful protesters. Leave petition: paltry. Revoke Article 50, it was at 6.5 mill I think,last time I checked.

Leavers can moan as much as they like. The majority of Leavers were pensioners who fondly look back at the days after the war, and want to go back to that. They’ve either realised they were sold a pup, or are not in any shape to organise riots etc. The younger Leavers are largely the Tommy Robinson ideologists, and they’ll be dealt with as necessary.

This should have never been put to the public, and it’s just another example of Tories using and misleading the working class for their own ends. The entire nation was/is sick of Austerity for all but the wealthy and the vote was used to supposedly get back at the monied minority. Stupid,the monied minority will always look after themselves, in or out of the EU.

How are you planning to deal with the Leave side being left down?

The fundamental flaw in your otherwise reasonable question is this.

Whatever happens, the approximately 30% of the electorate (not the population) which supports no deal is found to be bitterly disappointed whatever the outcome.

They have been fed a diet of betrayal and they gave gone for it hook line and sinker. They will be betrayed if there is no Brexit. They will feel betrayed if there is a deal. And most important they will also feel betrayed if there is no deal - because the EU and other trading partners will betray them by not reacting in the UK's interests but in their own.

30% of the electorate feeling betrayed is a sunk cost of Brexit. It's happening whatever.

{ and of course the negotiated deal. }
And again, for the hard of thinking:
THERE IS NO DEAL.
The WA is NOT a 'deal' it is the ground rules for a Withdrawal from the EU.
The basic rules are that the WA WILL be signed before the EU engages in any further meaningful discussions. The WA is NOT negotiable and it includes citizens rights, a 'bill' that needs to be paid, and a backstop to ensure that there is no border across Ireland. All the other pages are a LEGALLY BINDING withdrawal process.
There is a Political Declaration, which CAN be altered which outlines how and when the aspects of withdrawal take place.

Assuming the UK leaves, the WA will be signed which protects citizens rights.
There are 2 important sentences that have been repeated almost daily by the EU since November.

1: The WA is now CLOSED. It will not be rewritten.
2: The EU will not open trade talks with the UK until the WA is signed and fully ratified.

Currently anyone in the UK that believes otherwise, be it the cabinet, or someone sleeping on the street is wrong.
As I said earlier (might have been a different thread) Theresa signed over the controls of Brexit when she handed in the A50 notice over 2 years ago. IF the UK had bothered to negotiate constructively from the word go, things could have been so much different, but the UK has chosen to act like a drug crazed teenager with Tourettes, insulting heads of many states worldwide.

My Scottish MP is toeing his Tory party line and backing Brexit against the will of his constituents who voted 70% to remain

His 170 majority is now a shoogly peg hopefully

StoorieHoose I've a feeling it'll be a yellow landslide in the next elections. The Scottish Tories are about as fit for purpose as their Westminster cronies.

@InTheHeatofLisbon. No I didn't say they were to listen to their constituents and deliver what they want.

I said that they need to "act on what they are told".

When asked the question, more people voted to Leave than voted to Remain, the franchise for the referendum was UK wide, this was known from the start. In a UK wide democratic exercise the result is that Leave got more votes than Remain.

A 2nd referendum will be the best option. The first did not specify a version of leave and the consequences on N Ireland were not well thought through. There is likely no majority for no deal. The best way to solve is to put ALL options on a ballot voting by AV (knocking out least popular option in a series of rounds).

I don’t think it would be unreasonable to have another ref - this is what happens when there is deadlock - people vote again. I’m guessing going for 2nd ref is gonna make people less angry than just revoking.

There will be angry people both ways but if we have revoke then at least the govt will have the cash to deal with civil unrest. In event of no deal there may be far more pressing issues (eg supply of medicines). The other forms of leave would probably have smaller problems of disruption.

I said that they need to "act on what they are told".

By whom, if not their constituents?

When asked the question, more people voted to Leave than voted to Remain, the franchise for the referendum was UK wide, this was known from the start. In a UK wide democratic exercise the result is that Leave got more votes than Remain.

Yes, UK wide. The UK that is still intact because the "guaranteed" continued membership of the EU was promised to those who voted against Scottish independence.

Do you think they're happy?

And what of the Irish border?

Arguably the most important factor, barely considered by many, and with the potential to restart a long, bloody and damaging civil war.

No I didn't say they were to listen to their constituents and deliver what they want. I said that they need to "act on what they are told".

From memory, your view of what MPs are bound to do isn't reflected in their role. They are representatives, not delegates. Meaning that the few that do possess their own mind are entitled to use it when deciding how best to represent their constituents.

Nigel Farage wanted a second referendum before the result. Only fair to give it to him.

I think the logical thing to do is have a second referendum. The initial referendum promised a Brexit with a good deal. None of the people campaigning for leave ever mentioned a no deal Brexit. People who voted leave aren't going to get what they voted for. I also don't think we can simply revoke. The only reasonable thing to do is to put it to the people. "Knowing what you know now do you wish to leave or remain". If people vote leave there would need to be a second question on the ballet sheet "Theresa Mays deal or no deal Brexit". The two stage process would leave no room for arguing. If at the first stage the majority votes remain then we revoke. If the majority votes leave then whichever holds the majority of the second question TM Deal or No Deal is what the government should move forward with.

By the electorate Lisbon! The question was put, an answer has been received.

Are those who voted against Scottish independence happy? I've no idea.

What of the Irish border? The UK government has no intention of reinstating a hard border in Ireland. I can't honestly believe anyone else does either.

I know the issue. My view is that what you are asking is that a democratic exercise involving almost 34 million UK adults be set aside, and why?, because some disgruntled Republicans want to restart a bombing campaign that ended about 20 years back. Should we be beholden to them, really, is that honestly what you want?

{What of the Irish border? The UK government has no intention of reinstating a hard border in Ireland. I can't honestly believe anyone else does either. }

So, one of the main slogans in the Leave campaig was 'taking control of our borders'.
The UK leaving requires a border with all other countries. For most parts this is easy, the sea. There are 2 other borders that are no 'sea' being one across Ireland, and the other between Gibraltar and Spain.
So a simple question, are you taking back control of borders, or are you having no borders?

How are you planning to deal with the Leave side being left down?
There was a WA which allowed us to leave. It satisfied all the criteria of the Leave campaign as voted for in 2016. Nobody wanted it though so it was voted down. Leavers have had their chance. The tide has now turned and there is no longer a mandate for leave.

@Louisecollins - yes because historically UK has caused a lot of problems in Ireland and the safety and well being of the people there should be taken seriously (take the recent shooting of the journalist).

Although people say there will not need to be checkpoints, I don’t really see how you are going to do this. I believe the border into turkey (in customs union) has infrastructure and checks. Won’t people just fly into Ireland, cross to NI and take the ferry to UK (DUP will probably make sure they can’t do immigration check)? How will people regulate the flow of goods? Yes you can regulate big businesses doing lots of cross border trade but how about smaller/private operations?

LouiseCollins2 over half a million leave voters have died since the referendum, many have changed their minds and the local election results in England recently should have given an idea that opinions have shifted.

What of the Irish border? The UK government has no intention of reinstating a hard border in Ireland. I can't honestly believe anyone else does either.

What is it that they are proposing, in this solution that you insist they've come up with?

I know the issue. My view is that what you are asking is that a democratic exercise involving almost 34 million UK adults be set aside, and why?, because some disgruntled Republicans want to restart a bombing campaign that ended about 20 years back. Should we be beholden to them, really, is that honestly what you want?

No but then I don't particularly fancy being beholden to elitist politicians clinging to the last vestiges of a long dead Empire, forcing through a result based on lies, corruption and xenophobia either.

It is nearly 3 years since the referendum, the mood has shifted, circumstances have changed and very clearly the realities of Brexit have come to light.

Why not put it back to the people?

Because the only people I hear against it are the ones who can't explain why we're in this mess in the first place.

Oh and the troubles didn't end "20 odd years ago", how dismissive of you. You clearly have no clue about it, or don't care.
Either way, spectacularly ignorance of a complex, difficult and traumatic issue, caused solely by the British government in the first place!

Well if we leave half the population are angry

If we Remain half are angry

But Remaining is objectively better for everyone so we should do that, given half the people will be angry either way

Plus Leave voters are dying. Literally everyday more Leave voters than Remainers die, because more old ppl voted Leave. And more remain voters are coming of age.

So over time there will be less and less angry ppl. And eventually Farage and Boris will die so Leave will lack figure heads.

Our parliamentarians simply cannot bring themselves to accept the outcome of a direct democratic exercise that gave the "wrong" answer, as they see it.

You are back again to your MPs are Remainers argument. I have already told you that we had a General Election in 2017 and it was up to the Leavers to make sure that they returned Leave supporting MPs. If they didn't, you need to ask yourself why not?

May has tried to get the process started, with her Withdrawal Agreement - so far, many of the MPs on her own side have failed to support her. Right now they are more busy trying to make sure that they are part of an as yet to be declared Leadership race, than they are providing constructive solutions.

"Plus Leave voters are dying" - this sort of ridiculous supposition really does weaken the Remain (on the beaches, etc, etc) stance.

Maybe you are thinking "I wish all Leavers were dead" but I've no plans on dying any more sooner than the next person.

Anyway - I encourage all here to watch 'Brexit behind closed doors' part 2 on BBC4 tonight - you've plenty of time to watch Part 1 on iplayer catch up.

OP, if we had real, courageous leadership from our politicians, they would cancel Brexit and then spend the enormous resources that are currently being squandered on Brexit preparations on dealing with some of the very real issues that led many people to vote Leave in the first place - lack of investment in public services, massive inequalities across the regions, schools and the health service on their knees, etc etc.

You have said that you know remaining makes economic sense. Politicians ought to use the economic benefits of remaining to deal with the things that actually matter to people. That would go some way to sorting out the disastrous mess we're in.

@HateIsNotGood Leave voters are dying at a faster rate than Remainers because they are, on average, older.

Sorry if facts bother you.

You “have already told” me..... Haha well good for you! You can tell me
what you like Perigrina.

Both the conservatives and labour fought GE2017 on the basis of enacting Leave so that’s up to 570 plus who should be voting to enact Leave if they stand by their stated commitments. Stop trying to blame the voters for the parliamentarians mess!

@QuickQuestion2019 , my mother voted Remain in her mid 80s. She died shortly after.

@louisecollins - I believe tories and labour fought to enact a leave that does not exist. One that is ‘good’ for Britain. The referendum was also based on a fantasy Brexit - EU will want to get a good trade deal. Other countries will be lining up... in reality all these things will take years and other countries will want to squeeze us and get other concessions. And the fantastic border technology that is going to solve all NI problems? The govt could not implement an NHS wide electronic notes system. What makes you think they can deal with millions of border crossings of people and goods each day???

Parliament is dead-locked. We need a new referendum with specific clear choices, not just a nebulous leave (which could mean anything). In practice we would end up with customs union type Brexit which is worse than now but not an economic disaster.