Can people/Remainers explain what they are tying to achieve with Revoke?

[EggAndButter]

I initially wanted to post on AIBU but I didn’t have the guts and thought it wouod just be moved anyway...

I’m getting tired of Brexit.
Tired of the lies and dreams of the Leave side.
But just as tired of the dreams and wishful thinking of the Remain side.

So I am asking Remainers on here

What do you expect to achieve with Revoke?

How are you planning to deal with the Leave side being left down?
How will you deal with the inevitable instability coming with Revoke? There will a lot of very angry People around.... people who will be feeling left down. People in the north who have always being feeling that the South and London never listens to them and that this is another proof they don’t. And being sure that you have the ‘right’ solution isn’t going to be enough.

I have the same questions for Leavers btw. It’s just that the answer seems to always be ‘that’s the will of the people. Just suck it up’ :(

As we are going deeper and deeper into this brexit mess, it’s clear that there is one way to go back to what the U.K. has. That ship has well and truly sailed.
It’s also clear that No Deal will be a nightmare.

So the only way out I can see is a deal. A deal that will worse for the U.K. than being in the EU. A deal that both sides ‘will just have to suck it up’.
A deal where no one will be truly happy because the other solutions (No Deal or Revoke) just aren’t possible. But the only way out until the U.K. can sort itself out, its political system that has more or less collapsed, its priorities in the middle of a climate crisis, social issues, poverty and economic downturn, its press. (Whilst crossing fingers that whilst it’s doing that, no one will use that opportunity to take power -Trump style for example)

Not feeling very positive about it all. But even less so when I see both sides just sticking to their mantra and refusing to accept that, basically, they have both lost the game.

@bellinisurge - I'm sorry for your loss. But I did say 'on average', I'm aware some older folk voted Remain.

There will a lot of very angry People around.... people who will be feeling left down. People in the north [...]

The U.K. has been eurosceptic for at least the last 20 years, if not more.

OP, the validity of your first comment entirely depends on your definition of "the north".
The validity of your second comment entirely depends on your definition of "the UK", and can only stand if it is admitted that the latter is synonymous with "England".

Which highlights a key problem with this type of argument: the issue of percentages is radically different according to whether you live in England or another part of the UK. One of the key flaws in Brexit 'planning' (the term is flattering, given that there clearly was none) is that it is reliant upon an attitude that consists in pretending that England is the UK. Scotland is, on the whole, pro-EU. Many people in NI are also pro-EU and have been reminded in no uncertain terms that they count for nothing in England.

Being let down may be a relatively new feeling for people in England, including its northernmost reaches (though that is debatable, and Thatcher's disdain for anyone of that ilk was palpable and has a destructive heritage). It isn't for other UK citizens, whose experience over centuries may have led them to trust the EU more than Westminster.

What are people trying to achieve?
None of this is simple. The causes, the damage, the enduring divisions, are all the outcome of centuries of man's inhumanity to man, as a poet from the very far north once dubbed it. It took a shitload of irresponsibility from a particularly privileged southerner (who is now focused on his shed and hot tub) to bring it to this crisis point, though.

And I'd bet that many of those responsible for the current mess are those who may have been trying to achieve mess, safe in the knowledge that it won't sully them, their families or their lifestyle.
They sure as hell don't give a damn about climate change or any of the other issues facing ordinary citizens.

What is this thread, modest as it is, trying to achieve?

I said that they need to "act on what they are told".

Their first duty is to do what they believe is the best for the country. Tough luck if you happen not to like that.

@Namenic,
I reject the argument for a new referendum on principle. The 2016 result would need to be enacted before any future referendum would be held.

However, suppose I don’t reject it, for the sake of the argument.

what goes on the ballot paper for the third referendum, for you? What options would you want to see?

Their first duty is to do what they believe is the best for the country. Tough luck if you happen not to like that

Shame the MPs didn’t think about that beforehand - tough luck if they happen not to like it now. This is of their own making and I have zero sympathy for any of them.

time4, I have to agree there. They really showed a dereliction of duty back in 2015/2016.

Some are trying to do what they consider is the best for the country - others apparently not.

Can we just clarify this for the sake of accuracy
some of The U.K. has been eurosceptic for at least the last 20 years, if not more.
Approx 51.8 % of those that voted in 2016, a number which has rapidly fallen in 3 years, whereas the % of people who are Brexit sceptic is rising and likely to continue rising in the near future and beyond.

I cant help thinking that the referendum for brexiters has been a bit like winning the battle with the very real risk of losing the war for wznt of a decent plan....and the lack of enough lightbrigaders.

I think what will be interesting will be the EU election results and how well the Brexit party will do before anyone can say that the tide has turned in favour of remain. I personally know plenty of people who are sick and fed up with the whole parliamentary system which enables MPs to block the will of the people. Many remainers just want to get on with it and move the dialog onto other more important things. The idea that some how because the leave voter tended to be older and more of them will have died is misleading. People tend to change their opinions toward a more conservative view as they get older so many middle aged will have changed to leave.

Some of us have not become more conservative as we have got older!

@LouiseCollins - no deal, WA, customs union, single market, remain

Ie - all the options that have a precedent in other countries and could have a realistic probability of being enacted by Oct 31st. Canada would take too long to sort out I think.

Ps - lots of other countries have referendums multiple times on issues. We have general elections before fixed term deadline. So when there is a deadlock there is precedence for having another democratic vote. In a way it would be inconsistent (given the stalemate) to enact the democratic vote. If we had a series of ‘indicative votes’ in the country I reckon we would still not come up with a majority for a particular option. This is why we need the av system.

What happened to the OP?

Thanks Namenic. So 4 “strengths” of Leave and 1 Remain option. Can’t see the Electoral Commission buying that one! If they did, we’d need some sort of preferential system to count the votes for sure..

And some of us haven't died Peregrina.

I’d suggest a more thorough system of devolution to the regions.
MPs in every sector sitting in regional parliaments, with a regional leader they elect, as well as in the National Parliament.

We also need to look at the financial dominance of the City of London. With modern comms, there’s no earthly reason why every financial industry needs to cluster geographically round the Bank of England.
We could move the reinsurance industry to Liverpool for example.
I’ve got lots more but it’s late .

The fact that we never fought a European war on our own soil is often cited as a major difference btn the UK and other member states.
Many other countries had their infrastructure devastated by war and have had to rebuild in a considered way.
The UK has limped on with a sticking plaster approach to systems (transport, industry, social reform) which are outdated and damaging.

Both the conservatives and labour fought GE2017 on the basis of enacting Leave

And neither party won a majority in the HoC on those manifestos. You cannot claim a mandate based on a manifesto that was rejected by the electorate.

The manifesto applies to government: it makes promises about what the party will do if elected to government. It doesn't apply to individual MPs, which is why the system needs party discipline enforced by whips. MPs commit to acting in the interests of the country first and their constituents second. They don't swear to enact manifesto promises.

And the idea that opposition MPs are bound by a manifesto for a government they never formed shows a complete failure to understand the U.K. political system, from someone who no doubt thinks of herself as a patriot.

OP, the vast majority of remainers believe that the best interests of the UK in the short and long term lie in remaining in the EU.

I believe that anger from people who don't want that is a small price to pay for that.

People should also remember that voting through May's deal or deciding to leave with no deal is just the start. There will be a decade of making deals, sorting shit out, instability and uncertainty. If you are sick of it and just want it to end, you should want to revoke. The day we do that, all the negotiating and debating is all over instantly.

I also resent the fact that because remainers have not trashed the place and rioted even though we feel our country is being driven to disaster that somehow it is OK to ignore us when the perception is that Brexiteers will riot if we revoke and therefore we shouldn't consider revoking.

A deal doesn't make it all go away. It just takes us to the next stage of what is going to be a very long, painful and -IMHO- unnecessary process

There are loads of dramatic changes we can make using the past two years as impetus. Which we can do without flushing ourselves down the toilet with No Deal.
Tbh, Revoke is also a tough option and one not to be entered into lightly. I have supported WA all the way in the interests of compromise but it isn't the right kind of unicorn for Leavers.

What happened to the OP?
I’m here

To answer the question from a previous poster on this thread. Who am I?
I’m an European citizen who has lived here for nearly 25 years. One that has got scared to what her future will be for the last 3 years. Really panicky and therefore followed all the Westminister Threads since just after the referendum. I name change VERY regularly. Even more so when I start a thread that is more ‘personal’ like this one.

I don’t belong to ANY party. So I’m not fishing for information
But I do get worried that our politicians, regardless of whether they are Leave OR Remain, are muddling through wo a real plan. Because I believe that if you go in one direction with your eyes close you are more likely to fall over. Whereas with your eyes wide open, you might have to change your direction/path, you might even need to change your destination but you are much less likely to fall right at the bottom of a very deep hole.

People tend to change their opinions toward a more conservative view as they get older so many middle aged will have changed to leave

??

huh, you think middle aged remainers are now pro-leave because 'people grow more conservative' as they grow older?
in what way is brexit a more conservative view?
can you provide any evidence of your theory?

Personally I think revoke is the best option for the country as a whole, however a third referendum on the subject may be the only way to break the current impasse.

I wish the media would stop with the whole TM's Deal malarkey, it isn't a deal, a deal makes it sound like everything would be done and dusted if or when she got it passed. The deal or deals would be negotiated following that. From a position of weakness.

How do we deal with those who feel let down by the political establishment if we do not leave ? I don't think I can or should answer that as someone who wants to remain. Perhaps leavers could ? If we don't leave, what changes would you like to see ? What if anything would diminish the feeling of being let down ? Not what you think others might do or feel, but you personally ?

FWIW the fact that the demographic has changed enough in 3 years to very probably allow the Remain vote to win has been known for ages. And people have/might have changed their minds.

We don’t actually know by how much people have changed their mind.
AND
This won’t change the problem of a deeply fractured society.

neither side are looking at they can deal with that bar the old ‘suck it up and get on with it’.
And what would be the consequence of a win by a very small majority again (less than 60%).

It’s like no one has learnt the lessons from the previous referendum.

frumpety the fact that you are wondering WHAT Leavers would want, what sort of changes theyd like to see is already much more than what I have hear from any Remain politician (and most Remainers I know).

FWIW the fact that the demographic has changed enough in 3 years to very probably allow the Remain vote to win has been known for ages

apparently not, apparently we are expected to believe middle-aged remainers are turning into brexiteers.

And the idea that opposition MPs are bound by a manifesto for a government they never formed shows a complete failure to understand the U.K. political system, from someone who no doubt thinks of herself as a patriot.

To be honest, from an outsider who has tried to understand how the heck the british system is working, this is actually exactly how it looks like.
PM is chosen by a group of people within the party. PM decides what they want to do. Party follows, incl MPs.
So we’ve had Remainers conservatives who are happily voting for the WA. Do they do so because they are toeing the party line now and follow their leader or dis they vote and campaign for Remain with DC because he was the the party leader, I do not know.
But I do know that changing your stance like this on such a subject is ... surprising.