Can people/Remainers explain what they are tying to achieve with Revoke?

[EggAndButter]

I initially wanted to post on AIBU but I didn’t have the guts and thought it wouod just be moved anyway...

I’m getting tired of Brexit.
Tired of the lies and dreams of the Leave side.
But just as tired of the dreams and wishful thinking of the Remain side.

So I am asking Remainers on here

What do you expect to achieve with Revoke?

How are you planning to deal with the Leave side being left down?
How will you deal with the inevitable instability coming with Revoke? There will a lot of very angry People around.... people who will be feeling left down. People in the north who have always being feeling that the South and London never listens to them and that this is another proof they don’t. And being sure that you have the ‘right’ solution isn’t going to be enough.

I have the same questions for Leavers btw. It’s just that the answer seems to always be ‘that’s the will of the people. Just suck it up’ :(

As we are going deeper and deeper into this brexit mess, it’s clear that there is one way to go back to what the U.K. has. That ship has well and truly sailed.
It’s also clear that No Deal will be a nightmare.

So the only way out I can see is a deal. A deal that will worse for the U.K. than being in the EU. A deal that both sides ‘will just have to suck it up’.
A deal where no one will be truly happy because the other solutions (No Deal or Revoke) just aren’t possible. But the only way out until the U.K. can sort itself out, its political system that has more or less collapsed, its priorities in the middle of a climate crisis, social issues, poverty and economic downturn, its press. (Whilst crossing fingers that whilst it’s doing that, no one will use that opportunity to take power -Trump style for example)

Not feeling very positive about it all. But even less so when I see both sides just sticking to their mantra and refusing to accept that, basically, they have both lost the game.

I'd like to see it revoked as I think leave options have been well explored and it's clear now no one can find a good way/agree on how it should be done.

Personally I think with the vote being so close we should never have started down the road in the first place but we did so now we need to work with what we have already done.

We also have to somehow address the fact that - no bones about it - the Leave campaign lied. As a remainer I'd settle for Leaving the EU if the promises made by the Leave campaign are immediately honoured when we leave the EU. If not, they can fuck off, and so can their "will of the people".

That's before we start to look into any possibility of illegal spending and connections underpinning the Leave campaign.

Hell, tell you what since I'm in a good mood (roast potatoes for dinner...). Let's drop any investigations into Leaves conduct. Let's forget all their promises apart from the £350million per well for the NHS. Deliver that, and we're quits.

@EggsAndButter. I guess to "measure" the benefits of our integration as an EU member state you'd first have to beleive that such integration was a benefit on principle, and I'm afraid I don't.

Number of actual solutions offered by Caroline = 0

So level pegging with Breixteers then. Not bad.

{We are a net contributor to the EU budget, we pay in more than we receive in return.
This is something that I’ve always been uncomfortable with.}

If you pay £50 a month gym membership, you don't walk out with £70 in your pocket. You can't look at EU membership only on Pounds and Pence terms.

FoM does not mean a total 'free for all' as there are restrictions, certainly for permanent residence. Everyone wants to point out the few particularly Eastern Europeans who do the shit jobs that most UK workers won't. Yes there probably are 'irregularities but look at it from the point that their 'lifestyle' is hardly pleasant and comfortable, with many having left their family for months to earn cash. The amount that some of these might be 'cheating' from the UK 'system' is miniscule compared to other financial irregularities. Amazon paying it's tax for a couple of weeks would probably cover the loss.

There are many potential arrangements which provide "solutions" which can result in an orderly Brexit. Regrettably our parliamentarians have not seen fit to support any of them thus far.

Caroline doesn't even want to provide a solution, she just wants it to stop and then to pay the merest lip service she can to the views of those who supported it.

{I guess to "measure" the benefits of our integration as an EU member state you'd first have to believe that such integration was a benefit on principle, and I'm afraid I don't.}

That is fine, but DO NOT take the rights of others who DO want to be part of Europe away from us.

Personally I think with the vote being so close we should never have started down the road in the first place

You see I don't know any remainer who wouldn't have backed a phased Brexit with each step researched, planned and managed.

But as we know that would have dragged in facts that could not be ignored. Such as "why are we having to spend more on this, and why can't we do that ...". At which point the "we can still have all the benefits of the EU without any of the tiresome obligations" lie would have been busted clean open.

Ultimately, that's why we haven't left yet. Because no-one that wants to be here in 5 years time dares risk the lie being exposed. That whatever we end up with, it is - as Jess Phillips summed up perfectly - Remain minus. There is no state of being outside the EU that can deliver the same benefits as being in the EU.

LouiseCollins28 beyond TMs deal, what are the solutions?

As I said above, how do you expect a woman with no power or influence in the HoC to be the one to come up with solutions?

It should be those who campaigned for Leave! Only they've skittered off somewhere, and are remarkably quiet these days.

Again, we pay in more than we receive back, some member states are financial contributors, some are financial beneficiaries, we are a contributor in financial terms. This is a fact, people on here might not like that, but it is.

There are many potential arrangements which provide "solutions" which can result in an orderly Brexit. Regrettably our parliamentarians have not seen fit to support any of them thus far.

So how is that the fault of remain voters ? Who are suffering the exact same events Leavers are too, by the way ....

This is a fact, people on here might not like that, but it is.

Leaving with No Deal will tank our economy, which hasn't recovered from the last crash.

Leaving at all will damage the economy.

And as others have said, it's not just £££ it's the benefits we receive by being in the EU that we'll lose too.

I think there were 8 suggested options that parliament voted on. Of those PV and Revoke are not Brexit options but means to either stop it or rethink.

Of the ones that were options involving "a Brexit" we had, "retain single market membership, single market 2.0; join EFTA; "Labour's plan" whatever that was and of course the negotiated deal. So that's 5 right off the bat.

MPs have yet to support any of these.

They have had 3 years to sort this out. Instead of using the 3 years to sort it out they've spent them in cross-party and back-bench arguing because so many politicians have a personal preference to Remain, and aren't interested in representing their constituents.

They then use the argument that because it's all a mess let's cancel it, thus betraying their constituents a second time.

Meanwhile we have a two-party system which swings between austerity for plebs with tax cuts and shareholders payouts on one side, and putting the entire country on benefits and taking away any incentive to work on the other.
What we actually need out of this is a sane party in the centre who will acknowledge that we need a decent amount of properly funded public services, we need to look after our citizens, but we do that fairly, instead of allowing the bottom end to pay nothing and the top end to creatively "lose" their income to reduce their tax obligations. They could start by LISTENING and finding out what people really want, and not just the same groups of people they always listen to. Is it really that much to ask?

Had they done that in the first place we wouldn't be in this situation now.

So then 1tis what do we do next if that's your position? i.e. don't take away my rights?!.

The "Remain" side wins despite the fact that more people voted for the alternative "Leave", so we disregard the vote held in the last referendum, then what?

MPs have yet to support any of these

Because iirc there were doubts about the realities of each, much like TMs deal.

Ideas are not solutions, and thus far, nobody, far less the government have come up with a solution to deliver Brexit without seriously damaging the UK in the process.

Because it can't be done is my first thought.

Otherwise why no solutions?

The "Remain" side wins despite the fact that more people voted for the alternative "Leave", so we disregard the vote held in the last referendum, then what?

No, but a general election would be a good start!

MPs have yet to support any of these.

You know why ? Because they all involve losing something tangible (and quickly) which goes against the Brexit fable. That there are no downsides to leaving the EU, only buried treasure at the end of the rainbows that unicorns will fart over the country.

What I hope from revoke is getting more time ithout a ticking clock. Time to fully evaluate what people want, in more detail than "just leave!". Time to maybe examine what other countries do - what is Norway's position? Is that good for them? Could it work for us? Which bits might work? Same for Switzerland? Canada?

How about the Irish border - what options are there in that regard? Maybe even a border poll?

A reall in depth consideration and weighing up of the options, before deciding how to assess public opinion of those options.

And I'd want remain to be one of the options, but that's a very good point about ensuring there is some unity in the country. This division and us/ them-ness is toxic.

@weaselsrising. Good post. Agree with pretty much all of that. My one caveat is that "listening" isn't anything like enough for me any longer. Our elected representatives need not just to do that, but to act on what they are told!

@Lisbon @DGR because our elected representatives do not want to find a solution, they are actively working against finding one in many cases.

That's the problem I believe. Our parliamentarians simply cannot bring themselves to accept the outcome of a direct democratic exercise that gave the "wrong" answer, as they see it.

Our elected representatives need not just to do that, but to act on what they are told!

But many have done just that, by not backing the deal!

Ffs it's quite simple, I want to revoke as it's evident that leaving is going to be a fucking disaster of gigantic proportions! I'm type 1 diabetic and don't want to die because of a lack of insulin. Anyone whose life is dependent on medication who voted leave must be a lunatic

The "Remain" side wins despite the fact that more people voted for the alternative "Leave", so we disregard the vote held in the last referendum, then what?

(deja vu) an advisory referendum. And as such unfettered by the need to be held accountable for truth and accuracy.

LouiseCollins28 but in your last post you said they're supposed to listen and deliver what their constituents want, and what if that means blocking Brexit?

Scotland and NI voted to remain, so many Scottish and N Irish MPs will be reflecting that.

There has been no proper solution to the Irish border issued, and no proper consideration to what a hard border would mean.

It's pretty much the Tories trotting out the same shit and the rest saying no.

Because it's not feasible, it doesn't work for the UK and it isn't a good idea.

So again, the onus lies with the government to come up with something that does work!