Can people/Remainers explain what they are tying to achieve with Revoke?

[EggAndButter]

I initially wanted to post on AIBU but I didn’t have the guts and thought it wouod just be moved anyway...

I’m getting tired of Brexit.
Tired of the lies and dreams of the Leave side.
But just as tired of the dreams and wishful thinking of the Remain side.

So I am asking Remainers on here

What do you expect to achieve with Revoke?

How are you planning to deal with the Leave side being left down?
How will you deal with the inevitable instability coming with Revoke? There will a lot of very angry People around.... people who will be feeling left down. People in the north who have always being feeling that the South and London never listens to them and that this is another proof they don’t. And being sure that you have the ‘right’ solution isn’t going to be enough.

I have the same questions for Leavers btw. It’s just that the answer seems to always be ‘that’s the will of the people. Just suck it up’ :(

As we are going deeper and deeper into this brexit mess, it’s clear that there is one way to go back to what the U.K. has. That ship has well and truly sailed.
It’s also clear that No Deal will be a nightmare.

So the only way out I can see is a deal. A deal that will worse for the U.K. than being in the EU. A deal that both sides ‘will just have to suck it up’.
A deal where no one will be truly happy because the other solutions (No Deal or Revoke) just aren’t possible. But the only way out until the U.K. can sort itself out, its political system that has more or less collapsed, its priorities in the middle of a climate crisis, social issues, poverty and economic downturn, its press. (Whilst crossing fingers that whilst it’s doing that, no one will use that opportunity to take power -Trump style for example)

Not feeling very positive about it all. But even less so when I see both sides just sticking to their mantra and refusing to accept that, basically, they have both lost the game.

I did read it. I get that things are worth spending money on, I also get that by not spending on one thing, e.g. Brexit, Trident, HS2, NHS (take your pick) you can spend on something else (NHS, Education, Social Care, Trident, Brexit) again take your pic.

My problem is that nowhere do you say where this money is coming from. You say "rearrange things". I'd suggest that the scale of "rearrangement" required to support the investments you describe is utterly beyond the ability of UK taxpayers to support it through contributions.

We are a net contributor to the EU budget, we pay in more than we receive in return.

@EggandButter So the only way out I can see is a deal. A deal that will worse for the U.K. than being in the EU. A deal that both sides ‘will just have to suck it up’.
That is what will happen.
Not to mention that we are now mocked globally for not having a clue what we are doing so obviously on a world stage. So, added to the above we will be taken for all we have by US and China as well as EU while we stand sidelined with no power.

That is the idea behind revoke. Yes some leavers will march and threaten not to vote ever again EVER. But their lives will not get worse. We know their lives will get worse if we Brexit so doing that, on a deal no one wants, is madness.

I'd suggest we have a GE after a ref if it is Remain winning on the ballot and start addressing the causes of Brexit, loudly and one by one. Control of boarders? Fund boarder control in an open way, sort a system that will check who is in or out, maybe open the idea of identity cards again - etc. None of this is going to happen with Brexit.

I understand what you are asking op, if we don't brexit how will we manage the betrayal of those who voted for brexit.

However there can be no simple answer to this because there is no simple reason.

My dad voted for Brexit. He is a fairly educated, compassionate man and is a wonderful father. Politically we are often on opposing side but I love 'arguing' with him as it forces me to consider my opinions and justify myself.

However we cannot discuss brexit because he cannot give me a justifiable reason for his leave vote - it will be better - ok give me one example of something that will be better? We won't have eu making our laws - ok which ones don't you like? We can limit immigration - why is this a good thing? We can make our own trade deals - with whom do you think we should be trading? Tumble-bloody-weed!

We can only start to look at how we can come together once we identify what people wanted from Brexit, what changes would help. And until we can have an open and honest dialogue and get rid of unsubstantiated sound bites and divisive language such as 'the people's 'the elites 'experts' we will continue to be divided.

Sadly this is a conversation / consultation the government should have been having 3 years ago. I am a committed remainer but I fear we are to late.

{We are a net contributor to the EU budget, we pay in more than we receive in return.}

Yes a MASSIVE 0.7% of the UK GDP, almost one of the smallest segments. There were pie charts on another thread but IIRC about 40% goes to 'national infrastructure' and a similar amount to health and social services. Not to mention that the UK benefits from it's 0.7% contribution by around 5 or 6 times that 'value', although it is not seen as Pounds in pockets but in 'benefits' such as administration of common regulations, allowing the UK to trade with 60 countries 'tariff free', and beneficial rates trading with others.

And shouldn’t Scotland and NI be allowed to if that’s what they want?

Aye, we should!

Maybe I’m missing something but why do the English want to keep them in the union beyond sentimentality/traditions sake?

Money. Pride. The last bastions of the Empire? No idea.

The fact is that the UK and England are used interchangeably to mean the same thing, and as is the norm, nobody considered Scotland (or Wales!) in the run up to it, which is pretty shit but not utterly catastrophic.

The ignorance or ignoring of just how damaging for the people of NI a Leave vote would be should be fucking criminal. The potential to restart a civil war, and destroying an uneasy peace thus putting the lives of thousands at risk, all to prove a point is abhorrent.

Really interesting post ChilliMum, thank you for that. Interesting that you say your father cannot give you a justifiable reason for voting to leave.

Sorry OP I didn't answer your original question.

The answer is I don't know to be honest. I invested months into campaigning on behalf of Remain in the UK and trying to keep spirits up and hope alive.

Now? Fuck it, Indy 2 is coming, I can't cope with the rest of it.

If you mention Brexit to about 90% of the population, they will say how boring it is and they're fed up with it. The only way to make it go away is to revoke Article 50 and file it under "Big mistakes we will never mention again".

It's taken 3 years to even come up with the WA, which nobody wants. Once we finally agrer a withdrawal agreement, there will be years of further negotiations with the EU for a future trade deal, plus separate negotiations with the US/China/India etc.

It will go on and on and on. We will gain nothing from it, loads of other essential issues are not being dealt with because of the time and money allocated to Brexit.

It's insanity. It's been 3 years, still nobody has a clue what it will look like and every passing day the UK looks more and more incompetent. Just cancel the whole sodding thing and get Boris Johnson to stand in a podium and admit the truth. We already had the best deal.

If Leave was such a great idea Leavers in parliament (Boris etc) would have stepped up to the plate, taken charge and organised an orderly exit. You couldn't see them for dust - they are very good at baracking from the sidelines and rabble rousing and hurling abuse at Theresa May, less good at actually achieving anything. They sold voters a lie and they know it which is why none of them has stepped forward to put their magnificent plan into action.

Before the referendum apparently only about 6% of those in the UK were particularly interested/aware of the EU.
If you traded then you would be fully aware of trading regulations. Some would moan about that, but in reality they would moan about anything and are failing to understand that there are always two 'sides' to trading, and you can't enforce your viewpoint.
Farmers would moan about 'red tape' but ignore the upside that it means when the regulations are followed there is accountability for the work and quality standards can be maintained. Yes it is a pain in the bum having to have animals tagged and passports and verified veterinary treatments etc but it is necessary to avoid a 'free for all'.
Of course some of the benefits of being an EU member were not fully appreciated in the UK, things like the Erasmus programme for students.

get Boris Johnson to stand in a podium and admit the truth. We already had the best deal. This.

get Boris Johnson to stand in a podium and admit the truth.

This gave me visions of him in the stocks, having rotten fruit and veg thrown at him. Or how about putting him on a ducking stool?

I did say I'm not an expert and nor am I particularly informed about national budgets, but where did the money for Brexit come from, or the money for any number of other things? It seems to me as a not particularly clued up person that there is wriggle room in the budget when it suits the agenda of the politicians - my ideal would be for those agendas to fit more along the lines of what I mentioned. I don't think it's impossible for these things to be funded, in fact many of them were before the Austerity policies were brought in, and austerity hasn't helped the economy/budget as a whole increase, in fact it's made things worse.

I don't believe the net contributor line. That is a leave misrepresentation, IIRC, that leaves out a number of non-directly countable benefits which we'd have to pay considerably more to get the same value without the EU, such as security and trade agreements, and we can't really just do without. So again, if we leave the EU, we'll have to suddenly find loads of money in the budget for this kind of stuff, whereas we could just stay in it, and use that money to address the problems that leave voters have.

It seems to me that the overriding concerns about the EU seem to be immigration, overpopulation (due to immigration), lack of resources (due to overpopulation), money paid towards the EU, lack of input into decisions, overly stringent controls, and generally not liking the idea of being part of a large "bloc".

So I'd argue for better integration set up for immigrants (forgot to add this to original list), to reduce bad feeling towards immigration/possibly different immigration controls (which could be achieved whether in the EU or not TBH) but I actually think the lack of resources issue can be solved from the other end, by putting more into the resources so that they adequately serve the population we have. As said I don't believe we do pay more to the EU (when you consider what we would need to spend out without it), lack of input could be improved by more integration generally/political education, more attention given to EP in general. Controls I am for so I just disagree on that point and I don't think being part of a large "bloc" is avoidable in this day and age.

The OP asked what would be the point of revoke, what would be achieved by it, how would you solve the problems of leave. Not "please provide an itemised budget"

Do farmers et al not imagine there will be red tape with any other country they trade with..

Caroline Lucas has been talking about your exact concerns a lot, OP - see here for example: www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/01/16/the-three-stage-plan-to-stop-brexit

It seems to me as a not particularly clued up person that there is wriggle room in the budget when it suits the agenda of the politicians

Mhairi Black said similar in the HoC. Didn't get a straight answer as I recall.

So I'd argue for better integration set up for immigrants (forgot to add this to original list), to reduce bad feeling towards immigration/possibly different immigration controls (which could be achieved whether in the EU or not TBH) but I actually think the lack of resources issue can be solved from the other end, by putting more into the resources so that they adequately serve the population we have. As said I don't believe we do pay more to the EU (when you consider what we would need to spend out without it), lack of input could be improved by more integration generally/political education, more attention given to EP in general. Controls I am for so I just disagree on that point and I don't think being part of a large "bloc" is avoidable in this day and age

Agree with every word of this.

The old joke about asking how to get somewhere and getting the reply "well I wouldn't start from here" was never more true.

Unless and until someone can come up with a way to please 52% of the population without ignoring 48% of the population, there's no answer to the OP. I don't have the answer. But that's the real problem. All else is windmills and water features.

Chilli yep I agree with about how difficult it is to pinpoint WHAT it is that has been an issue for Leavers.
I think a lot of them are struggling to put their feelings and what they want into words rather than not knowing.

We are a net contributor to the EU budget, we pay in more than we receive in return.
This is something that I’ve always been uncomfortable with.

On paper, if we look at money in, money out, yes it is.
But what about the economic boost it’s giving to the U.K. economy, the fact so many things (like banks and the European medicine agency etc etc)
What about the effect it had on research?
One thing that brexit has shown is how integrated we have become with other eu countries. How do you measure the benefit of that?

DG yes I agree. And that’s why I’m so frustrated both by politicians and by very vocal Remainers (and Leavers!) who refuse to even broach the subject.

I'm curious about what you really want out of this thread?
Do you belong to a political party and joined purposefully to discuss/promote a view on Brexit?

In terms of remain - the issue is remainers have been largely ignored and its hooed they'd go away. Corbyn has done it again today.
Remainers are clear about what they want and what the future would look like including freedom of movement.
Leavers have multiple versions of leave - none of which are clear.

By the way we get more out in benefits than we pay.

@flowerpowe and Caroline Lucas's actual proposals as described in her article amount to?

Stage 1:
"So for the next few months, at least, let's have a moratorium on male ex-politicians taking to the airwaves as leaders on this issue. The Remain campaign needs to find new faces". Number of actual solutions offered by Caroline = 0

Stage 2: "stage two must be a commitment to seriously tackling the underlying issues which fuelled Brexit....finding genuine joint solutions about people’s very real worries about jobs, pay, schools and housing" -

Stage 3 "three must mean building on the cross-party work against Brexit that's already taking place - and that means engaging the Labour leadership." Number of actual solutions offered by
Caroline = 0

this isn't a stage but she also says "it must mean imagining a better Britain that could function within a reformed EU"

So we just have to imagine it and everything will be all right?
WTAF! Number of actual solutions offered by Caroline = 0

Number of actual solutions offered by Caroline = 0

As opposed to the numerous actual solutions offered by absolutely nobody else???

Caroline Lucas isn't in a position to actually do anything about this shitshow.

Surely we should be expecting those in government to actually come up with solutions that aren't disastrous instead of playing stupid games bringing the same deal that has been roundly rejected 3 times back to the HoC???

Bringing it back against Parliamentary procedure I should add.