Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot

[RedToothBrush]

I hope the events of this week give the ERG the kick up the backside over this that they need.

I doubt it will, but I live in hope. The alternative is too horrid to contemplate.

I'll leave this here instead as a reminder of what choice Brexit was always going to come down to.

Happy Easter everyone.

The kind of reforms Cameron - pressed by his hard right - demanded were impossible, without dissolving the EU.
he wanted the UK to be at the heart of EU rule-making, yet for the UK to be allowed to reject EU laws and ECJ decisions that it doesn't like.

The very few concrete things that UK Brexiters say they dislike are often the most popular with most citizens in the EU
e.g. FOM, Working Time Directive (Brexiters don't like other people having rights)

The ongoing moves to greater democracy within the EU have meant more power for MEPs and slightly less for national governments ..... a move which Brexiters hate

The EU is moving on; the UK seems trapped in its past.

Most Leave politicians are crooked, callous shits
Most Leave voters aren't

It is a culture war.
but trying to turn back the clock 45 years to before we joined isn't evil, just impossible

PMK. Been gardening in the sunshine today. It's preferable to looking at my family's social media pages, they're almost all in favour of Brexit & keep posting about being betrayed due to the delay. Not a word about the GFA, supply shortages etc.

Farage is writing the agenda. This is worrying.

PMK

With regard to Leave voters and the GFA, I've yet to meet one who gives a single shit about the peace in NI. All I've ever seen is a disinterested shrug so I really don't imagine it would have made any difference to the vote.

Correction. I have met one, a proper 'no dealer' who said that she though the peace is more important. If there's no way to implement Brexit without consequences for the GFA, as it seems, then Brexit would have to go, or be soft.

So people are no longer responsible for their votes?
Eh???

I'm afraid that if a leave voter can look at the past three years and either refuse to acknowledge all the economic flight/ rise in the far right/ rise in hate crime/ damaging of the peace in NI, or just don't care about it because they deem brexit more important, then, in my view, they are as culpable as the people at the top.

They voted for this disaster - and if they either refuse to acknowledge it is a disaster or are OK with disaster then at best they are wilfully blind idiots and at worse they are utter evil bastards who don't give a shit.

I don't buy into the 'good people who believe in something' narrative. If what you believe in is harmful and destructive then you cannot be a good person. They are mutually exclusive positions.

Whilst I am frustrated at all the people who voted leave and have since changed their minds - I don't include them in the above. They have looked at the damage and realised they want no part of it.
But anyone who still supports leave... I'm afraid I can't have respect for people taking the ostrich approach (which is the kindest reason to suppose they haven't changed their mind) and I feel utter disdain and disgust for those that see what is happening and push for it to continue - whilst pretending the disasters were either inevitable or are not linked to brexit.

Generally speaking, I don't respect cult members. At best, I can pity them... but not when their beliefs are actively harming other people.

If May is toppled.....
e.g. if local & EP election disasters cause the 1922 to change the rules on challenging a leader

then Boris & Hunt are the 2 main contenders among MPs, each with 50 MPs signed up already
Raab is a distant 3rd, with only 20-30 MPs.

Boris support is reportedly accelerating - and he would very probably win the party members vote against anyone

Surprising about Hunt - I thought Gove would be Boris's rival, but Gove is reportedly "nowhere"

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8894996/boris-johnson-topple-theresa-may-tory-leadership/

I can't understand why anyone would support Boris Johnson.

pretzels Most leavers refuse to believe that racist attacks have increased significantly and

• like most other people - know too little about NI to realise the dangers & the current ramping up of dissident Republican violence

Brexiter politicians - including ex-cabinet Ministers - spin trade & business news to hide the economic damage

Brexiters like Mervyn King and Digby Jones had the prestigious job titles, so they are the "experts" that Leavers believe

Decades of poliitical spin by mainstream parties have massively reduced public trust in official statements & statistics

Studies & polls indicate that Leavers think that negative reports about post-referendum effects are part of Project Fear

• and that quite a lot of Remainers think it exaggerated too

Going by family members who are Leavers and from Leavers online:
they tend to think that the "liberal mc establishment" has always conspired against the and is conspiring now to rob them of Brexit, their one victory in the culture wars

They are not listening to any other pov, because of the Backfire effect - Brexit was an emotional decision, not an evidence-based one

The more evidence that Brexit would be a disaster, the more they close their minds
Because they are not bad people and hence can't accept that a decision they made could have such terrible consequences

PMK, Happy Easter!

Boris keeps telling people that Brexit is easy - so they were right all along to BeLeave and they didn't make a disastrous mistake when they voted.

Many MPs need that reassurance too, not just ordinary voters

Of course, some Brexiters - like Boris, JRM, Redwood - are just in it for the money or career opportunities,
or the once in a lifetime chance to put their hard right ideology into practice

Happy Easter, math

I understand what you're saying BigChoc but I'm afraid I take a harder line on it.

They are not listening to any other pov, because of the Backfire effect - Brexit was an emotional decision, not an evidence-based one

This is stupidity. Pure and simple. It cannot and should not be respected or coddled. Excuses should not be made for adults, who refuse to look at facts - especially when the stakes are so high.

The more evidence that Brexit would be a disaster, the more they close their minds
Because they are not bad people and hence can't accept that a decision they made could have such terrible consequences

This is pure moral cowardice and is completely unforgivable. If you cannot face up to a mistake you have made and even worse - double down on it - despite the harm it is doing, then you are not a good person. Just because people don't see themselves as bad people, and refuse to see themselves as such, does not make it the truth.
I know it's difficult to admit that you are wrong - I appreciate that and I do respect the leavers who come out and say it, or anyone in any walk of life that does - but being a good person is not necessarily the easiest path to take. And you don't get a pass just because the fuck up you made was particularly large and with far reaching, terrible consequences.

They don't like it when we say they didn't know what they were voting for. They refuse to admit they were lied to. If I take them at their own words, they voted for exactly this and are happy for it to happen. Even allowing for the excuse of 'it's hard to change your mind - especially if it alters how you view yourself' - then all that means is they would rather let war break out, vital meds go short and utter disaster hit the country than admit they made a mistake and admit maybe they were fooled.
Considering all that is stake, that pride is unacceptable as a defence.

It comes down to this - if they look at the facts and refuse to accept them, or parrot 'project fear', then they are idiots.
If they look at the facts and claim 'coincidence, never said it would be easy, the pain will be worth it' they are bastards.

Neither idiots or bastards get my respect.
And anyone who ignores reality and expert analysis - when people's lives via medication or the peace in NI are on the line - have a very dubious claim to being 'not bad people.' Because they would prefer terrible things to happen than admit they were wrong.

I can't understand why anyone would support Boris Johnson

There's lots of things people support that I absolutely can't understand.

Normally, with someone like Boris Johnson, you'd want them to get what they'd always dreamed of, and then to monumentally fuck it all up; like the baddie does in the movies. But with Boris Johnson, we'd all good down the tubes as he fails.

Brexit was an emotional decision, not an evidence-based one

This is stupidity. Pure and simple. It cannot and should not be respected or coddled.

Is emotional thinking stupidity though? ( Secretly part of me thinks it is.) Looking at my two DDs I have concluded that their brains really are wired differently. One makes logical linear decisions, the other consistently makes emotional ones. She just can't help it- her brain really is wired differently. Example - went for a walk on Friday (emotional thinking) DD was wearing boots she really likes. They hurt her feet so much we had to curtail the walk. The next day, yesterday - she chooses to wear the same boots again. She knew this was another day which involved a lot of walking! I tried to get to the bottom of why she made that decision.She actually said part of her brain tells her not to, but the other part tells her liking them is more important. I know she will be like this as an adult too. I could give 100s of daily examples of similar illogical decisions.

So whilst Inside I agree with pretzels that anyone who ignores reality and expert analysis (when people's lives via medication or the peace in NI are on the line) has a very dubious claim to 'not bring bad people.' I am afraid based on my straw poll of DDs1 and 2 it appears BCF is right ...half of the people just can't help it. Emotional decision making dominates and they just can't make logic overrule that.

I do find the irony that Leavers largely voted based on emotions and yet, in my experience, are the ones most likely to hold sexist views about women and PMT/being emotional. It really is about fear of looking silly, fear is the main driver and pride a close second.

Pmk

It seems the Tories are playing on the fear again here by launching an investigation into the persecution of Christians rather than into the Brexit debacle . JC is far more on my wavelength in this article at least.

Going by family members who are Leavers and from Leavers online:
they tend to think that the "liberal mc establishment" has always conspired against the and is conspiring now to rob them of Brexit, their one victory in the culture wars

My MP actually referred to Brexit being 'stolen' due to the delays and the talks with Labour. I bet Asda we're glad to get rid of the genius. It does explain why he was too stupid to actually read my email and refer to it in his response though.

I'm not sure vilifying emotional-thinking leavers helps our cause in attempting to remain / revoke / refresh etc really. I refer back to @FlowerPlower's 'how to persuade' people post a thread or two back.

To my mind there's a massive difference between them and the likes of JRM et al.

I'm not sure being stridently judgmental is any more an endearing personality trait than being led by emotions either, quite honestly.

It seems appropriate on Easter Sunday to remind people of: 'Let he who has no sin cast the first stone.'

I think fervent Leavers should be very afraid of the DUP turning on the Leave dream. For them, the Union is more important than Leave. Rather than the other way around which is how Leavers feel.