Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot

[RedToothBrush]

I hope the events of this week give the ERG the kick up the backside over this that they need.

I doubt it will, but I live in hope. The alternative is too horrid to contemplate.

I'll leave this here instead as a reminder of what choice Brexit was always going to come down to.

Happy Easter everyone.

Johnson for PM? Elected by a Tory members i.e. a handful, maybe 50,000 at most, of elderly predominantly English people, to represent 65 million people? Why aren't the Leavers on these threads screaming about the lack of democracy in that decision? It might be the event which completely smashed the Tory party. If a majority of MPs defected then presumably Johnson would just have a rump of a party and in no way be able to govern? Interesting. Would they want this after the May elections or wait until after Conference when the time for a deal is running out, and crashing out is back firmly on the table - which is what they want? Mind you, I do think Johnson would be the only one who could reverse Brexit - "sorry chaps, can't be done."

As for Leavers and NI - one closet Leaver has told me that they are making a meal of the border issue - they could get round it. I said, they will have to have customs checks somewhere, so even if they are moved away from the border, the customs office doing the paperwork becomes the border and becomes a target. No answer to that one.

{A strong PM following DC's departure would have just said that A50 wont be triggered because of the GFA and then set about reforming the EU and addressing voters concerns.}
What SHOULD frighten people is that the day after 'exit' day the government have to hunker down and actually make good on trade deals, start to address inequality in the UK and a whole raft of things that they have previously shared responsibility with the EU.
There is no suggestion that any of them are capable of doing this job.
So far they are all about getting to the 'line' of exiting, but there are no policies evident that indicate that the UK gov is capable of handling the control that it will have. So many aspects have been addressed as part of a 'club' so dealing with China/India/Russia/USA has been done with the other 27 at the table on 'our' side. The UK is going to HAVE to do all the future negotiating on it's own from a position of total weakness and with a background of a weak economy and massive structural problems and a government and opposition that are roughly equal in 'power' but opposing views on how to move forward.
For this reason I would propose Farage as PM, at which point he would fail spectacularly and the EU could be persuaded to look on the UK favourably. Brexit is not the problem, the direction the UK wants to take (or rather, lack of vision) is.

They are part of a group that have unleashed disaster on the UK.

I would contrast them more with those 1930s Germans who didn't wake up to the danger of Hitler soon enough. Not intrinsically bad people, just ones who didn't/don't question very deeply and when they do start to question, it's too late.

{It is OK to “feel” your way to a bad decision because “feelz” but to do so repeatedly, in a way which knowingly, negatively impinges on other people does make you some mixture of thick and/or selfish.}

It is the way that 'leavers' and particularly 'Brexiters' are STILL repeating the same lies after 3 years when it is easy to demonstrate that they were lies in the first place that is so wrong.
I find it interesting that if you look at the leaflet sent out by Cameron before the referendum, gradually the opposite effects of the things 'he' said were benefits of being in the EU are coming to pass, slowly but surely.

{Germans who didn't wake up to the danger of Hitler soon enough.}
I had tea with a German lady the other evening and I felt a bit sad that she felt 'uncomfortable' about being German and would prefer to have been a different nationality and she was born around 1960.

Thought i'd attach the PDF of the ref leaflet

Oops EU ref leaflet

It is the way that 'leavers' and particularly 'Brexiters' are STILL repeating the same lies after 3 years when it is easy to demonstrate that they were lies in the first place that is so wrong.

I would clarify that further by adding 'some' in front of 'leavers', as there's been evidence of leavers changing their minds from a few posters, so it's not all of them. Leavers are no more a homogeneous mass than

Brexiters, on the other hand, are more dangerous, because not only do they know that leaving is a disaster (particularly with no deal), they're actively driving this to happen and trying to actually push the UK off a cliff, because for whatever nefarious reason, it benefits them.

Agree leclerc

And I’m not trying to be endearing btw. Leavers are cunts. IMO.

These arseholes have unleashed havoc on our country.

And for what??

Interestingly the leaflet is oft quoted as saying the ref was a "once in a lifetime decision" whereas it actually says "once in a generation decision"

One of the many things which annoys be about the BBC is when they interview a Brexiter it's always a fat middle-aged northern man, i.e. a 'gammon'. Why on earth don't they go and interview a smug, middle-aged, comfortably off Tory woman - they abound in plenty in the south east. Financially they will suffer the least. They may find that their children don't agree and have reduced contact leaving them utterly bewildered why don't see their grandchildren as much as they want.

"once in a generation decision"

This is an important point - I think it was on the other thread where I said that these things go in generational cycles - so the post war consensus lasted 30 or so years, followed by something of a hiatus, then the Thatcherite years 30 ish years which still carried on to some extent under Blair. Now we are in another hiatus.

In ten years time, assuming that the Brexiters haven't totally wrecked the country, we will be clamouring to rejoin, and the predominantly older ones who voted Leave will either have died off or will stay schtumm about how they voted.

I would contrast them more with those 1930s Germans who didn't wake up to the danger of Hitler soon enough. Not intrinsically bad people, just ones who didn't/don't question very deeply and when they do start to question, it's too late.

Most of them were cowards. That's the reality of most human beings.

Or to rephrase, there are indications that people did realise what was happening -just like they do now- but courage is so celebrated in all cultures precisely because it is so rare.

There is nothing endearing about anyone who DELIBERATELY makes other peoples lives worse.
I managed to read the leaflet (thanks for putting up the link) and work out that leaving would be a bad idea. How anyone can read it and then come to a conclusion that it is all rubbish so we should leave instead because we might get a bit more 'sovereignty' (which if you understand the concept can only be on a scale as no one is ever 'totally sovereign').
The mechanism for reducing immigration always was in place and the leaflet references taking action. Does anyone know if the 'emergency steps' that were available have been actioned or did Mrs May simply go to 'operation hostile'?

This is what I don't get Peregrina. Surely people must know deep down that the consequences for the economy will be disastrous and that will impact on the GCs. How do they think they will be able to explain their vote then? I get it that Brexit is a religion or a cult and not a rational decision based on evidence, but how can there be so many people who think like that? I remember from watching the results on referendum night that the real shock was seeing swathes of the south and south-west voting leave.
I have lived in France for nearly fifteen years but I am still a nearly seventy year old, middle-class woman from the south-east. The people I knew when we lived there weren't stupid and our UK friends are all resolute remainers. What has happened?

{Germans who didn't wake up to the danger of Hitler soon enough.}

The problem being was that for Germans that were not on Hitlers 'hate list' Germany probably felt like it was improving the lives of most, which is ultimately the purpose of the leader. The fact that he did it be ever increasing unpleasant means is where it went so horribly wrong.
It might be argued that the UK is currently embarking on a similar cycle and is positioned around about 1933/34 with a new hard line Chancellor taking control.

Very few people realise the complex systems of international trade, treaties, transport, essential agencies that enable a modern country to function
Few also know the history of even their own country, other than the names of a few heroes

Many Leavers seem to regard Brexit as no more difficult than switching an App.
Hence the fury, the feelings of betrayal, conspiracies and "EU punishment" that Brexit hasn't happened

The Tories and the media have found a scapegoat for all the things that many people think are wrong with the country: the EU

Scapegoating is a very effective strategy for those in charge - who actually are responsible - to avoid blame
and also to change the country in ways that people wouldn't normally agree

Yes, I agree with these last few posts. I assume that in Nazi Germany there must have been decent Germans who were in the position that I am in now. They didn't like what they saw about the direction their country was taking, but what on earth did they do about it?

I've written countless letters to my ex-MP and then became active politically to get her voted out. Am still active politically to get the current brand of Tories out, have gone on marches, signed petitions. On the other hand I am active in supporting social causes - but I don't feel that I am having much effect. Maybe it's just a question of ploughing on, and eventually a tipping point will be reached?

I could add that some of the local Tories are, I am sure, quite decent people, but the impression I get is that they don't question. I think they would genuinely be horrified if they knew the direction their party was being taken. I don't suppose they will actively do anything though - just quietly slip away, not bother renewing their subs, get on with tending their gardens and such like. Some evidence for this is that quite a number of the current crop of Councillors are not putting themselves up for re-election.

I am sure most people on here will have read them, but the Richard J. Evans trilogy about the The Third Reich is brilliant. The Coming of the Third Reich is the most relevant one for this moment I think.

At their highest the Nazi's only gained about 42% of the votes.

They was a hard core of Nazi votes boosted by a strong protest vote people who wanted a change because they felt they had been let down and betrayed by politicians.

Senior politicians believed they could control Hitler and he would be their puppet once they got into power. No one (apart from the hard core of believers) seriously believed Hitler would really gain power.

Good people voted Nazi to give the political class a kicking.

Scapegoats were blamed for all societies ills because they were 'foreign' and not 'real Germans'.

Excellent propaganda based on belief and emotions.

Sound familiar?

Apparently the Tory MEP for our region who occupies the number 1 spot for the forthcoming election is a fervent remainer, bucking the Tory Brexiter trend. He's got a few feathers ruffled amongst the local gammons.

conservativeeurope.com/mep/sajjad-karim