Westminstenders: Arse about Face

[RedToothBrush]

Everything about Brexit seems to have been done wrongly.

Setting red lines to rule out a compromise

The attempt to use executive power to trigger A50, that resulted in a court case

Triggering A50 before knowing what the UK wanted

Agreeing to the backstop before any Tory MP understood the GFA

Appointing a Brexit minister before checking he understood where Dover was.

May going on about NI and pissing off the DUP before they were just about to climb down.

Having a Meaningless Vote repeatedly with a gun to head.

Contempt of Parliament and just general fucking up.

Tonight, 3 days before we were due to leave the HoC finally sat down to decide what Brexit outcomes they thought would be a good idea - more than 2years after that should have happened.

And we now we are told the meaningful vote might be may even more meaningless by being wrapped up in the illusive Withdrawal Agreement Implimentation Bill.

Farce doesn't even cover it.

Anyway Indicative Vote results incoming in approx 15 mins.

@Cordelia
My take from a Leave voter POV would be something like this.

Walking away from the EU with "no deal" doesn't trash the GFA, its just that the GFA never considered the possibility of Ireland being in the EU and the UK not being. Erecting a hard border on between Northern Ireland and the Republic would be trashing the GFA, UK government have already said they don't want a hard border and so no "trashing" from us.

EU-27 need more concrete assurances than we can currently give, hence result = "backstop" if negotiations on new arrangements fail.

The backstop is perceived as reducing sovereignty I think because once in it we have no way unilaterally to leave it. Its harder to leave than the EU (if you can believe that's possible!) Our leaving it would be a matter of agreement with the EU, essentially its up to them. So the idea that we can walk away doesn't hold, for me.

jas, yes I get that that is bad. But I don't understand how that affects sovereignty. Parliament still has the final say on any laws which are implemented in Britain.

FWIW, none of what I posted means the backstop can "go away" if we make an agreement to leave. Any agreement we make, will have it

Thanks, Louise, that makes more sense. I don't necessarily agree, but it helps to understand the argument!

There was one SNP MP who didn't vote in anything: I looked him up and his mother died last Saturday and the funeral is on Saturday

louisecollins I agree that a backstop you can justs walk away from isn't a backstop.

The GFA never considered Brexit, as that was not remotely on the political horizon back in 1998 and the preceding years of negotiation
It doesn't specifically say no hard borders, no additional goods checks, because we were all in the EU

That's why the EU / Ireland want something that is legally binding, if the UK actually Brexits

With all the 'gaming' that the Westminster rabble are playing with, you have to consider that the EU is miles ahead in dealing with 'unruly neighbours'
If there is a 'master plan' possibly involving Putin and friends or Trump and friends the EU with it's 27 members has direct experience and the equivalent of GCHQ intelligence and of course some of the countries have been under Russian rule so very little will be a real surprise.

I think now the DUP feel they are fighting for their very existence
They need us more than we need them.

Just to re post, from Guardian.
This is what happens, if or if not WA passed tomorrow.

If the withdrawal agreement does not pass tomorrow, it is not just no-deal, or no Brexit. It is worth restating what Donald Tusk, the president of the European council, said at the summit explaining the deal

In the first scenario, that is, if the withdrawal agreement is passed by the House of Commons next week, the European council agrees to an extension until the 22nd of May

In the second scenario, that is, if the withdrawal agreement is not approved by the House of Commons next week, the European council agrees to an extension until the 12th of April, while expecting the United Kingdom to indicate a way forward. What this means in practice is that, until that date, all options will remain open, and the cliff-edge date will be delayed

The UK government will still have a choice of a deal, no-deal, a long extension or revoking article 50

If we Brexit, we may end up with an NI-only backstop,
so that the ERG can have its Canada-type deal and Bonfire of Regulations

The EU offered that recently, so they would presumably agree in transition too, if the Uk insisted.

That can happen regardless of the type of WA / PD we agree

There is no such thing as a Brexit deal we can rely on for the future
same as there is no deal that delivers all the benfits we have now

If you can smile when things go wrong ...

I've seen lots of comments on here about how a customs union option with a PV attached could work. I just don't see a majority for this, only a few Tories voted for the Margaret Beckett option so I don't see where any extra votes would come from.

The DUP supported Brexit because they wanted to kill the GFA

to kill the safeguards protecting Nationalists & Catholics from previous Unionist dominance & discimination
and above all, to kill off a future border poll that could produce a Reunited ireland

They just miscalculated, because they are as ignorant about the EU and international trade as the ERG
They are a very stupid party, always have been

I still have a horrible suspicion that it will be accidental No deal on 12 April because the Houses of Parliament will not be able to get their fucking acts together to sort out as a minimum the necessary EP legislation , let alone a plan to present to the EU as to why they deserve a bit or a lot more time

Dh still thinks it will be a panicked last minute Revoke.

If a surgeon kills their patient due to gross incompetence or being drunk, that's not called an "accidental" death

We need another word for No Deal due to incompetence, arrogance, ignorance, venality ...

How they voted yesterday may not be how they'd vote on Monday, however. The vote counts will be interesting then to see what - if anything - changes!

I hope your DH is right, pretty. I wish I could be that optimistic.

If a surgeon kills their patient due to gross incompetence or being drunk, that's not called an "accidental" death

If six armed policemen turn an innocent mans head to mince, it's called ... nothing at all.

Sorry, the age of responsibility (if it ever existed) went the way of luncheon vouchers. You may have heard of them, but try and find any ....

BCF yy with every word of your post 16.51.

Erecting a hard border on between Northern Ireland and the Republic would be trashing the GFA, UK government have already said they don't want a hard border and so no "trashing" from us.

Roll up, roll up, all smugglers welcome at this particular border. Smugglers & bad boys of the world unite.

CordeliaEarhart Well, as i understand it, if during the transition period EU27 decided to ban x y or z or say change the WTD, the UK would have to adopt that new law, there would be no negotiation in timescales, opt outs or how they came to this decision... we would just have to lump it and incorporate into UK law.

J'adore Cantona. Seagulls.

Has the SI allowing the delay gone through?

Leadsom speaking now. Same old bollocks. But different order.

Under WTO rules, the UK has to treat all countries the same, until it has a trade deal with some

Hence letting through goods without checks from the RoI means letting them in from the US, China, India ....
or they'll claim discrimination and then retaliate with e.g. high tariffs against UK goods

More of Rees Mogg’s, Duncan Smith’s, and Boris’s constituents signed the revoke petition than their respective majorities.
Interesting times. I wonder if it could affect their positions at the next GE.