I am thinking EU should lift their backstop demand (Irish MNers?)

[YeOldeTrout]

Bear with me, I'm a rabid pro-EU person & Remainer, actually.

But if UK leaves on 'No Deal' we're going to have hard border in Ireland from 29/30 March 2019, anyway. If EU allows removal of backstop, there's (how ever long) transition period of UK abiding by GFA and no hard border, until end 2020 or end 2021 maybe. GFA may be screwed over after that given the parlous talents of UK to negotiate with EU, but at least there's a few extra yrs of peace and stability in Ireland first.

I know it's not EU policy to be like children 'kick the can down the road', but it's the lesser of evils, if removing Backstop demand could get WA approved by UK Parliament now.

EU will only lift Backstop if Ireland agrees. Would Ireland prefer hard-border. Is EU too proud? EU should only do this with mega-plans about supporting Ireland in threatened legal action of GFA violated at end of transition period.

Thoughts from Irish (including Norn) MNers?

Do you mean the ROI RollerJud?

I mean there's no such country as Southern Ireland JustAnotherPoster00

'She’s putting all of us through Merry hell to keep the loons in the Tory party on side and stop them tearing each other apart but it’s looking increasingly like she’ll revoke if the crunch comes. '

I desperately hope you're right. I can't really believe she has lost her mind to the extent that she would allow a No Deal to go ahead. Not that she gives a shit about the country, but she definitely gives a shit about her own lovely legacy

If Revoke happens, it will be the sigh of relief heard round the world. Sadly it won't butter any parsnips for the poor people who have already uprooted their lives and moved elsewhere

I think she is gaming the feckers into accepting WA. I can accept that even if I don't want to Leave because it's the grown up way of Leaving- accepting your responsibilities and not throwing the UK into shock with No Deal.

bellini I'd love to think that you're correct.
However, from my side of the Irish Sea, the lack of style of leadership is shocking.

I hope that she is smarter than current appearances suggest.

Actually....

I'm really annoyed with all this messing around in the UK parliament.

History is littered with examples of shining leadership.
John Hume, Mandela, etc etc.

Leadership, real genuine leadership, means putting yourself at risk for the hard right thing.
Usually, it's a concept that is not popular initially.
But, the thing about doing the selfless, hard thing is that it cannot be argued with. And anyone working against it looks like a pillock.

At the moment, here in RoI, we are getting good leadership from Simon Coveney- and Varadker is doing a good job also.

I cannot see a shred of leadership from Johnson, Gove, JRM, Corbyn etc etc.
I see a lot of self interest and power grabbing.

Pity.

Ok @CountessConstance , maybe "gaming " credits her with too much but I think the result will be the same. The E.U. will rightly say "Feck off" and it's WA or nothing.
In what I hope is the increasingly unlikely event of No Deal, I'd rather do it with 26 other mates than alone in unsplendid isolation.

Yes bellini
"accept your responsibilities" and "grown up".
I think we're saying the same thing essentially.

Just be brave FGS.
Stand up to the demented leavers.
Farage whittering on about the "unelected representatives" as he sits in the EU Parliament with a nice pension on it's way if the UK leaves.
He has no skin in the game.

I'm glad that Varadkar and Coveney are getting a bit of love in Ireland. Flawed as they are, they appear to be doing a decent and professional job standing up for Ireland.

I think she is gaming the feckers into accepting WA
If she did get that through parliament (maybe with Labour help) then the DUP would end their support and the Conservative government would fall. Its NEVER going to happen.
The EU has 2 options now, either amend the WA or we have a 'hard' Brexit. It pretty straight forward at this point.

"the DUP would end their support"
Not a bad thing IMO.
Not exactly the representatives of all that is enlightened and tolerant.
I have a lot of sympathy for Arlene Foster at a personal level, but I dislike the extremism. I understand where it comes from, but I don't like how it's expressed.
Their ideology is fear based.
I don't want to subsume NI into the Republic; and I think any reasonable Irish person is not going to want that without the explicit consent of NI's Unionist population. (not withstanding that this is exactly what's in the GFA).

So, Mrs May to rely on the DUP says a lot about the ideology of the Conservatives, really.

"the Conservative government would fall"

Is that really such a bad thing?
Although, where would your leadership come from then?

Tbe EU doesn't have to amend anything. Other than add a few weasel words for show.

{The EU has 2 options now, either amend the WA or we have a 'hard' Brexit. It pretty straight forward at this point.}
So that will be a hard Brexit.
The WA will not be amended, 27 countries have been saying this for months, this fact has to be accepted.
IF the EU were in a tussle with a MEMBER over an issue, of course they will reassess things but the UK is getting the 3rd country treatment, the same that the EU applies to the USA and China.
Loss of the UK to them represents around 7% of the EU GDP, a pain but not hugely damaging. By 'repatriating' industry that was in the UK, even this loss could be reduced.

I'm hoping what will happen is that Labour will get behind the WA and kick the ERG and DUP into touch. They should have bloody voted for it in the first place. They have sided with the hardliners on this for no good reason and have ensured they will get what they want, to the detriment of everyone else. The WA was just the start of negotiations. if they were serious about winning a GE, then voting for the WA would as others have said, probably cause the government to lose support of the DUP and for the government to fall. A GE would then have had to have been called, which if they wanted to win it, would have meant they could negotiate their version of a deal. The only way to guarantee workers rights is for them to guarantee workers rights. Not rely on other people who are in power to not take them away!

So that will be a hard Brexit
If that is what the EU chooses then yes a hard Brexit. Not sure how that is in Ireland's best interests but such inflexibility is one reason why we leaving.

I wasn't sure whether to cry or laugh (hysterically) watching the Commons last night. Jesus wept - & he would have done, literally!!!!!

All the amendment possibilities that could have bought some time or opened up other avenues were shut down. Caroline Spelman's amendment which said that parliament rejected no deal, but contained no mechanism for preventing that and isn't binding anyway, scraped through but to what end?

As for Graham Brady's amendment to look at alternatives to the backstop - well what the fuck are they? You've had two bloody years to work on this stuff - well????????

What country in the world will want WTAs with the UK now? I don't suppose there isn't a country in the world that doesn't think the UK is not just shooting itself in the foot, but both feet, after having cut of its nose to spite its face.

I think she is gaming the feckers into accepting WA
If she did get that through parliament (maybe with Labour help) then the DUP would end their support and the Conservative government would fall. Its NEVER going to happen.*

Now that some Labour MPs have shown they're willing to rebel and vote with the government, she might feel more confident about being able to get a majority without the DUP.

I agree wholeheartedly Lotta.
We can just hope feelings don’t get further inflamed in the next two months.

I’m British with no Irish links but the first thing I said to DH that shocking morning after the referendum was ‘What about Ireland? We’ll have to stay in a CU because of the GFA and that means ECJ adjudication, plus regulatory alignment. At least it’ll force us to have a softer Brexit.’

In my wildest dreams I didn’t imagine we’d get to this place, where we have routine chatter about reneging on an international peace treaty like we’re cancelling a tinder date

There are lots of us over here who do care, despite the impression you get from the noisiest leave voters, the Westminster rabble and MMN.

I’m so sorry for the worry and turmoil being foisted on you.

The DUP have doublethink in their DNA.
They simultaneously want NI to be legally and politically indistinguishable from the rest of the UK while being different as well (eg on abortion rights). They simultaneously want free and frictionless trade as well as being out of the Single Market and Customs Union. They say that a hard border is unnecessary while knowing full well it is, under WTO rules.
As well as this they believe deep in their hearts that the EU is a Catholic plot to destroy their religion. They are nuts.
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/dup-mocked-mla-over-attending-event-for-antichrist-pope-you-are-dragging-unionism-down-says-beattie-37444498.html
www.irishtimes.com/opinion/anti-catholic-bigotry-of-many-in-dup-still-significant-1.2982216

This Graham Brady amendment is a charade IMO. They were asked again and again what these amendments to the backstop would be and dodged it. Ireland and the EU have said there is zero chance of making amendments.

@walkingdeafan

The EU have been flexible. The WA is an agreed compromise position. The UK want to take out the bits they have decided they no longer want by threatening to blow themselves up.

Given this is only the first step and a Free Trade Agreement still has to be negotiated the EU can’t continue to appease the UK.

Coffee
Apparently, during May’s meeting with the ERG, the idiot BoJo demanded to know exactly what the amendments would be and was told, ‘If you want to find out, you’ll have to vote for it.’

‘If you want to find out, you’ll have to vote for it.'
So professional.

"If that is what the EU chooses then yes a hard Brexit. Not sure how that is in Ireland's best interests but such inflexibility is one reason why we leaving."
Really walking

How many times does it have to be said?
The EU is not choosing a hard Brexit.
RoI is not choosing a hard Brexit.
The inflexibility is entirely on the UK side.
You went into negotiations, came out with an agreement...and then ignored it as soon as you got home.

If this were a divorce scenario, you would be the abusive intractable husband walking away from marriage to a reasonable but well-boundaried wife, who has had enough and is now insisting that you stick to your word.

@MargoLovebutter , the Spelman amendment success is good news. Those prepared to stick their neck out at this stage (including Tory rebels) voted for it. Those that are still too scared could play at Brady. Even without people brave enough to stick their neck out, it got through. Those who voted for it are not going to accept No Deal and they are clearly in tbe majority. It was a bit of a success against No Deal and I will take it as a hopeful sign that enough wimps will back WA eventually. A shit Deal is better than no deal.