I am thinking EU should lift their backstop demand (Irish MNers?)

[YeOldeTrout]

Bear with me, I'm a rabid pro-EU person & Remainer, actually.

But if UK leaves on 'No Deal' we're going to have hard border in Ireland from 29/30 March 2019, anyway. If EU allows removal of backstop, there's (how ever long) transition period of UK abiding by GFA and no hard border, until end 2020 or end 2021 maybe. GFA may be screwed over after that given the parlous talents of UK to negotiate with EU, but at least there's a few extra yrs of peace and stability in Ireland first.

I know it's not EU policy to be like children 'kick the can down the road', but it's the lesser of evils, if removing Backstop demand could get WA approved by UK Parliament now.

EU will only lift Backstop if Ireland agrees. Would Ireland prefer hard-border. Is EU too proud? EU should only do this with mega-plans about supporting Ireland in threatened legal action of GFA violated at end of transition period.

Thoughts from Irish (including Norn) MNers?

Exactly @CountessConstance .

Inniu Please can you tell me in what way have the EU been flexible. It looks like we are paying 36 B for a chance to stay as we are and try and negotiate a trade deal in the transition time

bellinsurge that is a good point. I guess it does at the very least identify those MPs who really don't want to see a No Deal. I haven't forward thought all the possibly projections yet though, to see if that is actually achievable - IYSWIM.

That DUP link is chilling stuff coffee.

Of all the minority parties in Westminster, you couldn’t choose a less flexible, reasonable, or representative bunch to prop up the Gov’s majority.

I’m not a religious woman but it does feel a bit like the forces of hell are fielding their dream team to take down western liberal democracy.
Trump, Bannion et al, Putin, Orban, Conte and our own slide towards Armageddon.

We live in interesting times as the Chinese curse goes.

Oh no the sea lions are back.

Hesta

1. No onus on the EU to be flexible at all.

You voted to leave. THat's absolutely fine. You came and made an agreement about how to leave. Also, fine. You want home and reneged on the agreement. Not fine. You went back looking for more agreements and flexibility- the cupboards is bare.

1. The 36B figure bandied about is over something like 20 years and will fund things like your previous commitments- and Farage's pension.

Red lines red lines red lines red lines red lines red lines red lines.

Theresa May’s red lines have made the UK the inflexible partner in this negotiation. How can people still not know this?!

The collapse of the Good Friday Agreement has always been top of the DUPs wishlist. It plays incredibly well at home amongst voters. I know I said on threads just after the initial Brexit vote that I was working in areas and heard several times a cruder version of fuck you GFA and fuck your Irish Language Act. That's been the DUPs endgame and they've played their hand. It may suit people to say they're thick, backward, intransigent but that in my opinion is a very dangerous underestimation.

The British government has allowed themselves to be played from the calling of an unneeded election. And the DUP will blame the collapse of the GFA on everyone else and it'll work.

CountessConstance So they haven’t been flexible so why do people keep saying that ? like all good negotiations you don’t lay all your cards on the table,

Everyone's an expert negotiator all of a sudden!

FML.

The British government has allowed themselves to be played from the calling of an unneeded election. And the DUP will blame the collapse of the GFA on everyone else and it'll work.

Unfortunately I agree with every word of this.

Everyone's an expert negotiator all of a sudden!

The vast majority of the people on this thread have a stake in the process, in many cases because we are Irish or Northern Irish, and have lived through the peace process AND/OR have read up on all positions and the relevant history -- and we don't have the luxury of the 'Bored now, switch the news off' or 'I'm all right, Jack' approaches, or a great deal of patience with the Tory willy-waving which started this whole Brexit clusterfuck in the first place.

And the ignorance in the media, and the way in which Ireland is being characterised as unreasonably digging its heels in, is quite astonishing at times.

Totally agree @Parthenope .

Parthenope I'm Irish too. My 'everyone's a negotiator' comment was aimed at the person who said 'like all good negotiations you don’t lay all your cards on the table'. A lot of people seem to think these negotiations should be approached like a game of poker, bluffing and psyching people out. That it's all about brinkmanship, when in fact all parties should be negotiating in good faith. May and her team have proved they're not capable of that.

The British government has allowed themselves to be played from the calling of an unneeded election. And the DUP will blame the collapse of the GFA on everyone else and it'll work.

@implantsandaDyson indeed this ^

When Scotland was voting to leave the U.K. ,or not, there was little debate about the border.

@Silkie2 , because we would both have been in the E.U.

Scandaloso Whether they both should negotiate in good faith, neither side has from the start, with the EU insisting on 100Billion payment that’s now ended up as 39B, both sides will be holding things back

Not sure what anyone can hold back about avoiding a hard border. As for reducing our bill. That was what is called compromise.
If you think that the EU is going to shaft one of its members to help a country that doesn't want to be a member anymore, you are in dreamland.
I recognise that causing further chaos and trying to break up the E.U. is Putin's game (aided and abetted by No Dealers) but it ain't gonna happen.

@bellini Scotland would not have been in the E.U if they had gained Independence.

It was something that got me shouting at the TV quite a few times.
Why was the birder not raised - it should have been because unless there was an agreement between scotland / ruk there would have had to be a hard border (I think!! - no expert at all)

bellinisurge You call it compromise, I call it negotiations, The EU aren’t as pure and fluffy as many of you think,

Well, no, I suppose that is correct.

I did mention the border on here during Indy ref but got shouted down. Anyone been to Norham Castle recently. But I digress.

While I know that an independent Scotland joining the E.U. as a separate nation was one of the talking points and there was the muddle over shared currency etc, I wonder how that would go now.

@Hesta54 I don't think the E.U. are nice and fluffy. In fact I hope that for Ireland's sake, they send TM back with a flea in her ear.

I don't think the E.U. are nice and fluffy. In fact I hope that for Ireland's sake, they send TM back with a flea in her ear.

They've faced down the US (more than once) ... which doesn't bode well for the UK. A squabbling 65,000,000 squaring up for a fight with a fairly united 450,000,000 ?

bellinisurge Why would you hope that ? It will lead to the one of the things you don’t want a no deal, which is no good for them or us.

bellinisurge Why would you hope that ? It will lead to the one of the things you don’t want a no deal, which is no good for them or us.

This is a discussion on Brexit. Not really sure how facts come in ? Surely it's all about opinions ? Everything is just everyones opinion. Yours, mine, Farages, Johnsons, Mays. Someone feels sun, someone snow. Who's right ? Maybe we all are.