I am thinking EU should lift their backstop demand (Irish MNers?)

[YeOldeTrout]

Bear with me, I'm a rabid pro-EU person & Remainer, actually.

But if UK leaves on 'No Deal' we're going to have hard border in Ireland from 29/30 March 2019, anyway. If EU allows removal of backstop, there's (how ever long) transition period of UK abiding by GFA and no hard border, until end 2020 or end 2021 maybe. GFA may be screwed over after that given the parlous talents of UK to negotiate with EU, but at least there's a few extra yrs of peace and stability in Ireland first.

I know it's not EU policy to be like children 'kick the can down the road', but it's the lesser of evils, if removing Backstop demand could get WA approved by UK Parliament now.

EU will only lift Backstop if Ireland agrees. Would Ireland prefer hard-border. Is EU too proud? EU should only do this with mega-plans about supporting Ireland in threatened legal action of GFA violated at end of transition period.

Thoughts from Irish (including Norn) MNers?

Then where’s the incentive for the UK government to actually find a solution? They’ve already shown they don’t much care about the GFA (the suggestion that they could unilaterally rewrite it being my favourite). They do everything on the cheap, won’t invest to the degree needed to achieve ‘max fac’, and will simply assume that he EU folded on it before so won’t be bothered when they don’t live up to their commitments.

Alternatively, the UK could just keep to the terms of Good Friday Agreement and leave the EU without screwing over anyone else.

The UK have caused the problem, so they need to find a solution, it's not up to everyone else to accommodate them.

I think they should adhere to the terms of the Good Friday Agreement myself, it's been working reasonably well for 20 years.

EU's leverage is greatest now.

And the fall out if they throw Ireland under the bus would be very very damaging.

No, I think the cabinet should all implode at their next meeting, have a fist fight, the whole UK govt should be then arrested and slung in jail and Angela Merkel should sweep in and take over and rescue us and send the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg to an asylum and heavily medicate them for as long as it takes to sort this mess out.

Which is as likely to happen as anything else at this point.

I would hate to see the EU give in to this shower of self-serving narcissists. I think it would be a massive mistake.

'The UK have caused the problem, so they need to find a solution, it's not up to everyone else to accommodate them. '

Exactly. The government are behaving like a bunch of whining little brats who keep insisting that everyone else give in because we're 'special' it's just mortifying.

The EU just have to hold firm on this and they couldn't be clearer about their position

No they must not bloody give in! Someone needs to retain some sanity and integrity amidst all this madness and all the egos. The EU need to stand firm and our Government need to admit Brexit is a total fuck up.

They can't just ignore international treaties that the signed whenever they feel like it. Who would ever trust them again? They got themselves into this position, they need to get themselves out of it without destroying the peace process.

Because it is literally just kicking the can down the road. The constant uncertainty of Brexit is bad for the country (We have wasted so much time and money so far with nothing to show for / as I am sure have the Eu and Eu27) and for business (plans on hold, time and money spent on contingency planning) and for what?

If the government really believed that there was an alternative they would agree to the back stop as they could develop their alternative and the back stop would cease to be of need.

I am a remainer but like most people I am so sick of this debacle.

I dont believe the Eu is perfect by a long way but one of its stregnths is its determination to work together and and to protect each other. If the Eu throws Ireland under the bus then I will lose respect for the Eu.

Why should they pander to a bunch of tantrumming toddlers who are willing to cut off their own noses just to give their neighbours a bloody nose?

The UK have caused the problem, so they need to find a solution, it's not up to everyone else to accommodate them

This. The gov should have thought about this (and other things) before they even considered firing the starting gun.

The RoI are full members of the EU. They have the protection of 26 other countries. We are on our own out on a limb. If Parliament doesn't want a no deal, they should just vote for the WA or TM needs to agree to a permanent customs union and give the erg and the dup the finger. Its not up to Ireland to put themselves at risk to sort out our mess. I don't know what is going to be achieved by dragging this nightmare on for 3 more months.

If the government really believed that there was an alternative they would agree to the back stop as they could develop their alternative and the back stop would cease to be of need.

^^THIS.

The uk govt is fully aware that there is no way out of the backstop by technological means because the negotiations looked at every border on earth apparently to try and find one. It doesn’t exist.

And the UK government will not spend money to find one (they’ll just make noises about austerity and how they’d rather spend the money ongthe NHS, which will then lead to the Daily Mail masses demanding Ireland is ignored because ‘operations! Sick children! [insert cause of choice here]!’

I would rather take a hard border now and have certainly (though it made me cry driving over the border last week as it is now (non-existent) and remembering how it used to be (soldiers, guns, checkpoints). What is the point of a further year of uncertainty for the same result? The British have shown themselves as utterly untrustworthy. They agreed to the backstop in December 2017 I think?

Not our circus, not our monkeys.

As for the suggestions we just join you in your mess to make it easier...

Oh that suggestion did make me laugh, the sheer arrogance.. I think some in the UK government think they just put their Irish toy down for a while and now they want it back cos another child is playing with it

The British demanded the backstop be UK wide... the EU gave in, now they don't like it!

A delay just means the New IRA would use that time to plan and rearm, the Loyalists aren't just going to sit back and do nothing!

What i would fear is that there is a referendum on uniting NI & ROI and the Loyalists kick off against that.
People forget that British troops originally went in to NI to protect Catholic communities from the loyalist terror gangs,namely the UVF which still has links with todays DUP.

The issue here is trust. There is no trust that the British government will work hard to find a solution without the obligation to do so. As we have seen in the last few months they really could not give a shiny sh*t about the people of NI and have total disregard for Ireland an a sovereign nation.

but at least there's a few extra yrs of peace and stability in Ireland first

Honestly I can't believe an adult who claims to be in any way au fait with the complexities of this issue typed that. Is that what people like me are supposed to be hopeful for - a couple more years?
I took a leap of faith over twenty years ago when I voted in favour of the GFA. I know it stuck in the throat of a lot people to vote for a treaty that for example allowed the early release of prisoners, the removal of Articles 2 and 3 from the Irish Constitution but thankfully people could see the bigger picture.

The fact that this difficult and hard won decision has been so quickly disregarded saddens me, it did make me very angry but I've gone beyond that.

I'm also waiting on some bright spark telling in actual words how the over 200 border crossings would be monitored or are we back to closing off roads?

This is not about EU pride, OP. From the Irish/EU perspective, they have legal and moral responsibties to the population of the north as well as to stability on the whole island of Ireland. Just because numbskulled racist politicans in England are prepared to ignore those same responsibilities does not mean that Ireland will do the same. It's not a race to the bottom.
And something else you seem to be entirely missing is what the poulation of the north want. In the GFA, the last election, and all the polls since, a large majority of the people of NI have chosen an open 'border'. Why should a bunch of Tories in league with the DUP 9who represent only a minority in NI, and whose electorate gets smaller year on year because of their extreme policies and the higher Catholic birthrate, and who didn't support the GFA to start with) get to ride roughshod over the democratic will of the electorate of NI, just to appease the democratic will of the electorate in England?

Oh you want Ireland to accommodate you is it?
Why should Ireland suffer to save your ass?
We owe you nothing. Absolutely nothing.

It is up to the UK to put an alternative proposal to the backstop to the EU and Ireland. They have not done this.

The backstop only comes in "unless and until" the there is a trading arrangement that operates without a hard border. If Britain is confident this can be achieved then there is no need to be against the backstop.

When we look at Britain from Ireland and the absolutely craziness going on among the politicians there and the very poor quality of the debate on your media on the actual issues, why would Ireland trust Britain?

Brave post OP!

The EU can't lift the backstop and even if they did that is only one of the myriad of issues that beset Brexit.

If the UK want to leave the customs union and the single market, how can they possibly expect not to have control over the goods entering and exiting the UK and likewise how can the EU not want to have control over goods entering and exiting its own borders? Last time I looked NI is part of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, so there has to be a way of managing that border with the EU. It is all very well you suggesting that there should be no hard border for a few years, but how do you suggest it should be managed?

The UK has single-handedly got themselves into this mess and it is for the UK to get themselves out.

The UK govt should be hung out to dry for threatening the GFA. I'm not Irish, by the way, but the way we Brits have treated Ireland has always broken my heart. This wrangling over the backstop is a shambles and the EU have to stand up to Brexiters bullshit otherwise we're all sunk in a duplicitous quagmire.

Why does the Uk & NI not want a backstop though? Surely it's in their best interests too? Or are they willing to sacrifice one of their dominions to a return to guerilla warfare on their territory? The DUP are one nest of snakes. There were bombings in London too you know. It's in everyone's best interests I would have thought to maintain the GFA. The DUP are not very far removed from years of terrorism.

Entirely agree, onalogsabbatical