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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

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BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 10:38

red re financial crisis:

The last one was triggered by Lehmans' woes causing cascade failures in an unstable financial system which had insufficient checks

No Deal means taking offline the (former) #5 economy in the world
probably for several months

The horrendous complexity of how the UK is linked, not even just to the E27, is likely to cause all sorts of key failures in the global financial systems that noone considered

Obama and other leaders put in more checks, but Trump has tried to dismantle everything that restricts any freedom of the financial institutions to make money.

Even without Brexit, there were some predictions of another global downturn within the next few years.

I've been worried about a global financial crisis ever since May's Lancaster House speech, in which she made No Deal shoot up the likely risk ladder.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 10:42

While most Remainers here are praying that the WA is voted down,
the EU leaders all seem to be hoping that it will get through eventually.

Hence the fevered attempts on this side of the water to come up with some statements after the WA vote that would actually help May get it through next time,
but of course without watering down the backstop or committing themselves to a deadline on a trade deal in transition

TatianaLarina · 13/01/2019 10:43

If May had spent more – or any – time negotiating with MPs from all parties to establish a consensus on an acceptable post-Brexit relationship with the EU, she would stand a decent chance of winning the notorious meaningful vote, says Robert Peston

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/theresa-mays-single-most-important-strategic-mistake/

What follows the humiliation of that defeat?

Well the foreign secretary Jeremy Hunt is probably correct that parliament would find a way to block a no-deal Brexit, such that the choice for MPs will boil down to what he calls ‘a version’ of her Brexit deal, or no Brexit at all (via a referendum).

Should and would this rising probability that we will remain in the EU after all lead the PM to start cooperating with Jeremy Corbyn, to agree a vision of the UK’s future trading relationship that might command a majority in the Commons?

One influential minister told me: ‘my judgement is that Corbyn would never compromise on any deal because he needs a crisis and general election, so moving to a softer Brexit just loses more Conservative [MP] votes without gaining very many Labour ones’.

Cheekysquirrel · 13/01/2019 10:43

They had a poll in my town centre yesterday and the options were: May’s deal, no deal, stay in EU.

May’s deal had about 10 stars
Remain in EU had a quite a few
No deal was absolutely full to bursting, practically no more room for people to put their tiny star stickers on the chart.

Ffs.
This is why we should never have voted on this.
In the event of another referendum (which I know is highly unlikely anyway) I thought we’d get a remain result. Now I’m not so sure. I know we are only a smallish town but the vote was overwhelmingly no deal as the preferred option.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 10:44

That will stay EU policy until they believe there is a reasonable chance of revoke happening.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 10:48

May has screwed up, but we are where we are and without a Tardis.

There is no time to renegotiate the WA itself, regardless of how many rebels on both sides form cross-bench alliances

Even if the UK drops its red lines on FOM & ECJ and decides to go for SM
the "frictionless trade" would then only be put in the PD as an aim for negotiators in transition, not a legal obligation

wherearemychickens · 13/01/2019 10:49

My head hurts trying to understand that Nikki da Costa thread.

wherearemychickens · 13/01/2019 10:50

The summary appears be 'beware: dangerous constitution re-writing shenanigans ahead'?

thecatfromjapan · 13/01/2019 10:51

Fuck me, Cheeky. Where do you live?*

Are they bloody mad?

Having said that, I do think a lot of it is bluster, people not wanting to lose face - and there is a lot of face to lose. It must be horrendous knowing you voted Leave, your friends know you voted Leave, you all voted Leave - you all know you are all, publicly, gullible twats.

I think a lot of those folks would just be 'too busy to. Ore' in s second referendum.

*Rhatorical - clearly, don't answer this.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 10:51

I wish Hunt and other posers would stop talking about ‘a version’ of the WA.
This is the only WA on offer.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 10:57

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Jeremy Corbyn finally comes out as personally against a second referendum: "My own view is I would rather get a negotiated deal now" #Marr

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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 10:59

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Corbyn gives strongest signal yet that he will call a confidence vote in the Govt on Wednesday: "The crucial thing is Tuesday. And then, if this Government can’t control Parliament, it’s time to have a general election” #Marr

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Thegirlinthefireplace · 13/01/2019 11:00

Of course the EU27 leaders want the WA to go through, it's great for them, ideal really.

Not a criticism, they negotiated something that works for them while being basically fair but yeah, they're bound to want WA to pass.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 11:00

Nick Robinson @bbcnickrobinson
The state of British politics today : @jeremycorbyn refuses to say whether Labour will back Brexit in an election he says is urgent whilst @10DowningStreet refuses to contemplate Plan B ahead of a vote the PM knows she will lose

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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 11:03

Adam Wagner @ adamwagner1
Corbyn comes across as just another politician who won't answer a straight question with a straight answer #Marr

At least it should be clear (despite his attempts to dodge the questions) to all potential Labour voters that Jeremy Corbyn wants to campaign on a campaign of carrying out Brexit #Marr

His pitch seems to be that he would be the PM to channel the anger of the electorate. A kind of psychologist in chief? #Marr

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TatianaLarina · 13/01/2019 11:06

No deal was absolutely full to bursting, practically no more room for people to put their tiny star stickers on the chart.

In the event of another referendum (which I know is highly unlikely anyway) I thought we’d get a remain result. Now I’m not so sure

Which is what went wrong last time. This is why, if the WA is voted down HoC must focus on getting No Deal off the agenda ASAP. Benn’s potential amendment will start the process. Da Costa’s piece indicates next step of primary legislation.

That may be able to get No Deal off the ballot paper if it came to PV. Otherwise No Deal is on there and it may win.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 11:07

{The British consumer is very fussy and eats the leg of lamb & chops, but won't eat most of the animal}
Given the choice of watching piles of sheep being burned while having had nothing to eat, as opposed to a nice Lamb casserole i'm with the latter.
Mother used to say 'beggars can't be choosers'.

Well done to that poll for putting the only viable options, even if it resulted in massive 'no deal' result.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 11:08

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Giant leadership vacuum opening up on both front benches. Never been more obvious that the Commons will attempt to fill it.

Every one loves a political vacuum...

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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 11:10

Faisal Islam@faisalislam
Corbyn gnomic as ever on actual Brexit policy... tho not inconsistent with Gardiner on Ridge last week - that Labour should attempt to negotiate a comprehensive customs union, and then put that to the people - which is my best guess at where Labour manifesto policy would end up

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OlennasWimple · 13/01/2019 11:11

Of the list, a couple were quite batshit but most were at least approaching possible and some quite nuanced.

So was Lord Buckethead's manifesto

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 11:12

Nick Boles MP @ nickboles
Apparently I am planning a coup. Odd sort of coup that requires a majority of democratically elected MPs to vote for it before the tanks start rolling...

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TatianaLarina · 13/01/2019 11:15

I wish he’d been a bit more ‘gnomic’ on the subject of calling GE of the vote goes down. It’s bound to panic some Tories into voting for it.

Equally if he declares it in advance and it goes tits up he will look even more silly.

Quietrebel · 13/01/2019 11:18

Had to share this gem of a reactionary backwards worldview:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6585741/IDS-condemns-punishment-British-public-schoolboy-Singapore-people-safer-there.html

Anyone else finds it disgusting that IDS is exploiting this tragedy to push his agenda for a hard brexit/ Singapore model??

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 13/01/2019 11:18

No deal was absolutely full to bursting, practically no more room for people to put their tiny star stickers on the chart

Oh crap. I’m hoping you live in a seriously strong Leave area.

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 11:18

They had a poll in my town centre yesterday and the options were: May’s deal, no deal, stay in EU.

I mean this as gently as possible, but given the pretty poor grasp the average voter had of the issues in 2016, is there a possibility that for some "no deal" is a synonym for "remain" ?

I'm quite taken aback that given the astounding success of the referendum in allowing pure democracy, we haven't seem more schools simply asking all the pupils what the best policies should be for the school, or nurseries conducting a peoples vote of the toddlers to see how they would run the joint.

That's sarcasm by the way. We no more let pupils runs schools (or prisoners jails Hmm) than we should ever have allowed people a direct vote on anything. Let alone something as complex as the UKs relationship with the EU.

With reference to my questions yesterday, I wasn't thinking of military service - that's well established. I was thinking (and thanks for the posters who informed me) more of civilian jobs that are critical.

In a former role, I was told I could be instructed what to do by a particular government agency, and I would be required to comply. It never happened, but all IT staff had been prepped for a "dawn raid". In this case we would have been paid as per usual, and the request would not have been contentious. But I am aware there are all sorts of liitle-known clauses squirrelled away in statutes that allow for all sorts of powers.

Right now, parliament seems to resemble Ouroboros...