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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 11:20

Corbyn is another who iritates me with his constant talk of a "negotiated" WA

Unless he drops UK red lines, he'll be presented with this same WA

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 11:26

TheGirl This deal certainly isn't "great" for the EU

  • but they had to negotiate a WA to avoid the mutual disaster of No Deal

However, with the UK's red lines and the GFA, it is the only deal that fits
For a better deal, the red lines need to go ... and since the EU don't want to extend for another 2 years, that would probably mean keeping the WA, but changing the PD.

Merkel & Macron described the WA as a tragedy for all Europe and nothing to celebrate, when they signed it

They only want the UK to approve because that's the best chance to avert No Deal
They would Love the UK to Revoke, but consider that very unlikely
and of course they don't dare even hint at Revoke, or that would kill any remaining chance

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 13/01/2019 11:28

Corbyn is another who iritates me with his constant talk of a "negotiated" WA

Bloody Corbyn. I was half listening to him on Andrew Marr the morning (had a 7 & 5 year old demanding food at various points, selfish monkeys Grin).
I came away with the impression his plan is to renegotiate with the EU Confused. Stay in the single market but stop FOM Confused. Did anyone else catch the interview I’m sure I heard it wrong due to my chattering kids.

Quietrebel · 13/01/2019 11:28

I just think people's hearts aren't in the EU... Remain doesn't appeal to most people's guts- and they tend to vote with their guts.
My eldest is at a very Remain uni but even he has been surprised at a couple of his friends coming out as closet leavers (they're a small minority but still)... he is very respectful of others and so are they- so they've been able to keep discussions civilised and friendships intact- but, not to be too pessimistic, I agree a 2nd ref may not be as clear cut as we'd hope...

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 11:30

amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/01/11/uk/no-deal-brexit-shops-additional-security-gbr-scli-intl/index.html?__twitter_impression=true
Police advise stores to hire extra security in case of Brexit panic-buying

London (CNN) British police have advised retailers to consider hiring additional security to cope with fears of food shortages and other goods in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

London's Metropolitan Police said concerns about shortages of goods could lead "to a significant increase in customers," in a statement emailed to CNN, and suggests stores should consider planning for extra security.

The statement said that while "no advice has been issued in relation to looting," the police are "having these conversations in order to minimize the demands on policing from any resulting large crowds or queues at shops as part of our regular civil contingency engagement with businesses and partners." The advisory was first reported by Politico.

www.politico.eu/article/uk-police-advise-shops-to-hire-extra-security-for-no-deal-brexit/
UK police advise shops to hire extra security for no-deal Brexit
Fears about shortages may lead to panic-buying and crowd control problems for retailers.

I missed this one.

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DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 11:33

I think the cancer has spread so far, that even if Her Madge Herself were to go on TV and plead with the nation to revoke and reconsider (not necessarily abandon, but at least do it properly) then we'd see the rent-a-mob contingent storming Buck House. We've managed to paint ourselves into such an existential corner.

(Not for one moment I am suggesting Brenda should do that. Just that even id she did, it wouldn't calm the nation).

Hopefully, that realisation is creeping - at differing speeds when you allow for mental acuity - across all MPs minds. There's an edge of despair and desperation as they realise far from taming the dragon, they are now condemned to ride the fucking thing.

Unpredictable beasts, dragons.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 11:34

DG Remember the horrifying pictures in the 1980s of US air traffic controllers in handcuffs and leg irons, on the orders of Reagan ?
That was when they went on strike over pay & conditions

The US broke the strike with military replacements, iirc sacking most strikers and training fresh civilian replacements

Important difference there is in the respective sizes of the military:
the UK has no armed National Guard and hasn't enough troops to control 65 million people who panic / rebel.
The police are also mostly not trained to carry guns.

So, I hope a govt crackdown wouldn't be feasible
However, I can see civil disorder and also civil conflict of Brexiters fighting Remainers

  • or just mindless nationalist violence, e.g. trashing ambulances etc as in the World Cup when England played.
Thegirlinthefireplace · 13/01/2019 11:34

Out of interest Bic Choc, what are the negatives of the WA to the EU27 as you see it?

MeganBacon · 13/01/2019 11:35

I heard the Corbyn interview too and yes, that seemed to be the message through the waffle. He seems to think the EU would be more flexible about all their rules if he leading the negotiation. Just hopeless.

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 11:37

DG Remember the horrifying pictures in the 1980s of US air traffic controllers in handcuffs and leg irons, on the orders of Reagan ? That was when they went on strike over pay & conditions

Yes. But Reagan won ....

Mistigri · 13/01/2019 11:37

I know we are only a smallish town but the vote was overwhelmingly no deal as the preferred option.

These are the people who polling suggests think that an 8% drop in GDP would be no biggie.

In other words

  • they don't know what GDP is
  • they don't really understand percentages

This is why referendums are so poisonous. You're asked "the people" - 50% of whom have a two figure IQ - to vote on issues that most educated and intelligent people don't fully understand.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 11:41

DG imo those who would be violent after Revoke would be far more violent if their No Deal unicorn went as badly as we expect

In any case, policy decided to avoid offending the mob would no longer be a functional 1st world country

Properly conducted polls strongly indicate that Remain would win a PV with Remain vs WA or Remain vs No Deal
Far more reliable than amateur local polls or anecdata

I'd very much prefer MPs to decide, but it they are totally logjammed come March, I'd definitely prefer an emergency appeal to the EU to extend for a PV

MPs can vote whatever they want, but unless they choose either WA / Revoke or extension, then No Deal will automatically happen at 11 pm on 29 March

The HoC does not override international law, which A50 is

Cheekysquirrel · 13/01/2019 11:41

I was a bit aghast by the poll.
I wouldn’t have said we were a typically ‘strong leave’ town but who knows? We don’t have lots of immigration (my friend’s whole family from Norfolk voted leave on that’s basis) and typically we elect an independent mp although the tories are in this time.

But yes - virtually no one wanted May’s deal, staying in probably had 50-60% of what the No Deal option had.

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 11:47

The HoC does not override international law, which A50 is

Unfortunately, the pisspoor teaching of the UKs own constitution in schools means few people will understand what that means.

One of the reasons we've arrived here, is the persistent complacency (borne or arrogance Hmm) that the "little people" don't need to really concern themselves with how their own country works. Maybe, going back, there was some merit to that view. After all, when things work, why bother to study them.

Most voters still struggle to understand that you don't "vote for Corbyn", and you don't "vote for May". You can't even "vote Tory", or "vote Labour". I know that because certainly most journalists and reporters don't get it. And they're voters too.

Anyway, as with foreign directions.... if you wanted to go there, you wouldn't start here ....

Thegirlinthefireplace · 13/01/2019 11:47

I think we, who follow it on twitter and discuss developments daily on here, forget how little others known of what's happening.

I spoke to someone a few days ago who was booking a holiday for Easter and didn't see any potential Tavel pitfalls of no deal Brexit, didn't occur to them and when I raised the possibility, was told "they wouldn't allow that to happen".

The magic "they" who won't allow bad things to happen are regularly quoted. I'm not even sure who "they" are and why people trust "them" so implicitly.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 11:54

girlinthefireplace Transition will be ok for the EU

  • although the UK may find it can't keep some of the EU deals with non-U countries, even if the EU requests this

The main problem is the longterm deal that would have to be negotiated during transition.
With the UK redlines it can't be "frictionless" trade, because that requires SM, FOM & ECJ etc

That harms the E27 as well, because they are tied in to the UK market
So both their supply chains - imports - and exports to the UK will be damaged

They would be in a much better position than the UK, because they are only suffering damage to UK trade
However, we are the #2 EU economy
Even with better prepping, that is predicted to be a blow to several of the E27 economies.

Worst case is that the UK actually walks out after transition, rather than accept the backstop with its permanent CU and obeying all the regs in the SM that are to do with workers rights and the environment etc,
because they stop the UK doing deals with the US like TTIP.
So that would be No Deal, but just a few years later than now.

Another big reason for EU regret is losing the UK's "clout" in the military, intelligence and international relations field

Losing stability & support in dealing with the far right in Hungary, Poland, Italy

Add to this the EU would only be a market of 450 million instead of the current 515 million with the UK
So,
It makes the EU weaker on the world stage,

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 11:55

The EU are hoping that during transition the UK will be persuaded that frictionless trade in SM is worth FOM & ECJ

Moussemoose · 13/01/2019 11:55

In reference to the US air traffic control strike. It is illegal for federal employees to strike in the US. So the strikers were breaking the law and thus it was easy to sack them.

Thegirlinthefireplace · 13/01/2019 11:59

Well Big Choc, I would have thought that many of the problems you cite can be minimised massively during the transition period (in a way they couldn't be in a no deal cliff edge).

You don't mention the gain they will make by being able to take a massive chunk of current UK business that relies on SM/CU which can move slowly across the channel during he transition.

Of course UK never voting leave in the first place would have been preferable but I think the WA gives them a great opportunity to make a massive vat of lemonade with them lemons.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 12:03

{ Her Madge Herself}
'Ive got a castle and I'm going to use it'. Do you mean this Majesty?

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 12:05

We've discussed before the lack of personal experience of real national hardship or civil disorder - as distinct from individual cases.

The vast majority of the public have a childlike faith that things can never get really bad, because the grownups would not let it happen,
or even that it is impossible for a wealthy country to suffer real hardship

Some of those who are poor foolishly believe they have nothing to lose.
That NMW, prices, holidays, benefits, the NHS etc cannot become noticeably worse

Hardly anyone alive remembers the 1920s & 1930s
and previous generations haven't really passed on their experiences of hardship then

  • and the incapabability of the govt to help effectively - to their boomer DC or GC

There is a major lack of understanding of the vast number of complex systems that must function normally,
in order to support their current lifestles.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 12:09

These street polls are self selecting.

People will not necessarily talk to someone else who they perceive to be for the other team

Or if they live in an area where they percieve to be a sizeable majority for the opposite point of view such desentors will be more likely to be attracted to the stall to 'make a point'.

People coming later will be influenced by what is already on the board and provide the 'correct' answer in a herd mentality.

So these things will tend to only attract those who hold the strongest most entrenched views, with those who are apathetic, unsure or otherwise fed up, avoid them like the plague.

They are wholly flawed as a tool from the word go. I'm not sure they genuinely show anything of value.

And the same would be true in an area deemed heavily 'remain'.

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BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 12:12

Thegirl Taking some UK business will not compensate fully
The EU will lose from Brexit and they know it.

It's just that concessions that damage the SM would hurt them far more
They are also not prepared to abandon the desperate needs of a member country, Ireland, for the backstop - which is very praiseworthy, imo.

I live in Germany and work for a large tech firm
The predictions from politicians here are that No Deal would be as bad as the 2008 financial crisis
and that the WA would be nowhere near as bad - especially because of transition - but would still be significantly worse for the EU than Remain

The loss of size and international clout is also significant

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 12:13

red I agree and I only consider polls from reputable organisations
and even then I look at several and consider the +/- 3% error margins too

Mrsr8 · 13/01/2019 12:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.