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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 09:38

Nick Robinson @bbcnickrobinson
If a government with no majority loses control of what is debated in the Commons & when it will be in office but not in power (tho’ talk of a “coup” reads like pre-vote spin by the Tory whips)

Indeed.

Funny how it was Julian Smith who 'just happened to over hear something'. Of all people.

As I said my OP there is a certain amount of nothing quite being what it seems this week.

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TatianaLarina · 13/01/2019 09:44

Latest predictions say she'll "only" lose by 100 votes?

I’ll take that. I’m living in dread of a scrape in.

AwdBovril · 13/01/2019 09:45

May has been living in Cloud Cuckoo Land, and now they're coming home to roost. It's all very worrying. Especially given the possibility that she could override parliament & push the WA through anyway under some kind of emergency powers (can't remember the exact term for it, but someone mentioned it in the last thread). I am continuing prepping, as I have absolutely no confidence in the government whatsoever. They already let people (supposedly) on benefits die of starvation, cold, diabetes issues etc, etc due to sanctions. They are utterly irresponsible & if they did it at a company level they'd surely be liable for corporate manslaughter. But because they run a country it's apparently all good.

As always, thanks for the new thread, Red.

Blahblahblah111 · 13/01/2019 09:45

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 09:45

Re the Yellow Jacket leaflet.

Have you ever read a BNP leaflet?

Oh my they were a thing to behold (if you ignore the nasty racism).

Dh's parents had one through the door many moons ago.

Having worked in printing I consider it a mortal sin extremely unprofessional not to get multiple people to check you copy before sending something to print. Not being great at English is not an issue as long as you are aware of the issue and are prepared to take steps to address this. Ignoring it and publishing something for the public without checks is deeply unprofessional (and costly).

The section on the BNP leaflet about improving education and making everyone speak English properly was therefore pure comedy gold.

These clowns are the same.

They couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. They'd just smash it up trying.

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Annandale · 13/01/2019 09:48

Lol Melanie cheeks (somewhat behind)

Soothing myself by reading about the Suez crisis, ie other times the entire British system has eagerly pointed a shotgun at itself and then found it couldn't reach the trigger and spent ages trying to find someone who would help them.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 09:49

{Oops! Henry IV was C16-17, silly me.}
I wouldn't worry, leavers would probably think it is the latest version of a vacuum cleaner.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 09:51

{(can't remember the exact term for it, but someone mentioned it in the last thread).}
Henry V111 who wasn't a vacuum cleaner although reputedly similarly rotund.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 09:52

amp.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/12/subprime-timebomb-back-companies-lighting-the-fuse?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true
The sub-prime timebomb is back – this time companies are lighting the fuse
Leveraged loans are ringing alarm bells for regulators who fear a repeat of 2008’s mortgage disaster

In the lead-up to the 2008 financial crisis, banks were so keen to lend that they liberally handed out mortgages to customers with weak or no credit histories who ended up defaulting when times got tough. Those mortgages had been bundled together and turned into investable products, causing a chain reaction of losses that spread like wildfire throughout the financial system and caused a global downturn.

A decade later, rather than doling out risky loans to homeowners, banks are handing out leveraged loans to indebted companies. Many are also “covenant-lite”, meaning they come with fewer strings attached for borrowers, and as a result, present greater risk for lenders.

And

Amir Amel-Zadeh, an associate professor at the University of Oxford’s Saïd Business School, explained that investors in leveraged loans, loan mutual funds and CLOs could face higher losses than investors in the same products during the 2008 crisis due to lower lending standards, an increase in covenant-lite loans and higher levels of corporate indebtedness than 10 years ago.

But while the trends in the CLO market were similar, he said the scale was nowhere near the mortgage securitisation market in 2008 – at about a tenth of the size. “So at first sight it is not as worrying from a systemic risk point of view. However, if economic conditions worsen, it can lead to losses for many investors and lead to a similar dry-up in liquidity in these instruments as we have witnessed with sub-prime mortgage securitisations during the 2008 crisis.”

This is not good.

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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 09:56

Brexit vacuuming.

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
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UnnecessaryFennel · 13/01/2019 09:58

Place mat king. Thanks red, as always.

Another week of criminal insanity unfolds.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 10:00

I was interested in the French Gilet Jaunes 'demands' as they were distributed in week 3 (about 6 weeks ago). Of the list, a couple were quite batshit but most were at least approaching possible and some quite nuanced. Calling for tighter controls on pesticides for example.
Papers reporting last night that the 'security officer' of the GJ in France has Russian connections is no real surprise.

'What do we want'?, No pesticides. 'When do we want it? Now.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 10:01

{Brexit vacuuming.}
Nah, that one just sucks!

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 10:02

Regarding the story in the Mail and Times, this the opinion of the former director of legislative affairs at no 10

Nikki da Costa @nmcosta
Extrapolating, amdt would be lengthy, targeting range of SOs relating to business. Normally not in scope, shouldn’t be poss, but with this Speaker...if passed it would be catastrophic. I don’t say that lightly. I’ve never seen something so designed to undermine govt stability

Quick thoughts - will refine. This is pitched as taking no deal off the table - it adds meat to the bones of how a majority against no deal might achieve it. It’s in No 10s interest to have it out there, to “focus minds”, but can it be dismissed as just that, a No10 operation? 1/

There’s been a lot of noise in Westminster this week that MPs wanted to do this through combo of changes to SO and attempting something on a leg vehicle. @alexwickham reported that a note was being circulated among remainer MPs saying there wasn’t a way other than no con. /2

But Speaker’s decision on Wednesday has introduced uncertainty on all sides. Tactically it’s high risk for No 10 by amplifying the potential they may bring it about, or perk the Speaker’s interest. On other hand it’s highly risky if it is kicking about and viewed as innocuous /3

If this is a straight game from No10 they want MPs that support leave to recognise risk to Brexit. But it’s also a heads up to the moderate centre MPs - it could precipitate fall of govt. If govt loses control of order paper, it has no levers. How would it regain them? /4

If the amendment is tabled on Monday, it will be voted on before the deal. If it was a one-off vote the sequencing of voting on amdts first and then the deal wouldn’t necessarily increase the chances of the deal passing. You could successfully vote it down, and then the deal. 5/

But there are 2 more opportunities to table and vote on same amdt. It could be added to the business motion for the “next steps vote”, or if govt avoid a BM to minimise that risk and fall back on SO provision of 90mins, then it can be tabled to the “next steps vote” itself. 6/

If passed issue would be whether it managed to combine ability to introduce legislation to take no deal off table. It would have to be primary because secondary powers are invested in a Minister. It’s also difficult to work through interaction with Lords (paging Lords experts) 7/

Throughout the stages of said Bill, government would presumably be whipping its loyal centre plus leave MPs against the Bill. It would in effect have become the Opposition. How long does the Party hold together in these circumstances? 8/

In such a situation where power has been seized, what remains to government? Yes there’s removing the whip from those that brought the amdt to life, but when the power has truly been lost, I suspect govt has to either resign not long after, or offer Corbyn what he wants, a GE 9/

This is all hugely unthinkable, it shouldn’t even be possible. I feel daft giving it credence, but.../ends

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BiglyBadgers · 13/01/2019 10:06

The yellow jacket list shows how intellectually damaging the habitual use of multiple question and exclamation marks can be.

I just can't help but quote the sainted Terry Pratchett.

'Multiple exclamation marks,' he went on, shaking his head, 'are a sure sign of a diseased mind.'

TatianaLarina · 13/01/2019 10:14

This is all hugely unthinkable, it shouldn’t even be possible. I feel daft giving it credence, but..

Of all the unthinkable things one or two of them are going to happen.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 10:15

Beth Rigby@bethrigby
I would gently point out that if May wasn’t running a minority govt which had lost the support of some of its own MPs and confidence & supply partners, parliament couldn’t stage ‘a coup’

The reality of minority governments is they are fragile and liable to collapse. Especially when they hold parliament in contempt first.

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RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 10:16

I think I am just relieved that the Yellow Jacket leaflet isn't in comic sans tbh...

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BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 10:19

red That's a bit of a departure by Roth from the previous govt line here:

Merkel and most other politicians who make any Brexit statements here want Brexit to be over;
they've spent 2 years on Brexit and want to cncentrate on other important topics.

Hence German and other EU leaders are looking for ways to help May get the WA through
because analysts here still rate the chances of Remain as very low

So after the WA is voted down - the first time - we can expect a flowery reassuring statement from the EU Commission - although no actual changes in the WA itself.

The main concerns here - and everywhere else except apparently the Uk and US - are about avoiding No Deal

As Roth points out in that link, an extension would cause complications re EP elections, so an extension would need to be worth the hassle to the EU

However, the risk of No Deal is now considered v high,
so giving more time to allow for No Deal prep by the most affected E27 countries might be thought acceptable enough grounds

This is also because most leaders wouldn't want to be in the position of refusing an extension to a desperate UK
and they probably would like, in the back of their minds, to give the small chance of Revoke more time to grow.

So, atm I'd expect Germany would probably support a UK extension request, even without a GE or PV, if they think there is a reasonable chance that other members would agree.

All reports say the RoI is very keen on an extension rather than letting time run out, so Varadkar would be the most powerful supporter of this.

borntobequiet · 13/01/2019 10:22

Bigly that quote is from the teacher in Interesting Times, isn’t it? Very apt under the circs. Wasn’t it all resolved by shooting Rincewind out of a cannon (must read again)? I vote for shooting Grayling out of a cannon, well away from any major airport.

TatianaLarina · 13/01/2019 10:24

So, atm I'd expect Germany would probably support a UK extension request, even without a GE or PV, if they think there is a reasonable chance that other members would agree.

Interstink.

borntobequiet · 13/01/2019 10:25

If I were an EU leader I think I’d opt for the known misery of sorting out a WA acceptable to all over the unknown put predictable miseries of sorting out a trade deal with a country with no (or very few) competent trade negotiators.

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 10:28

I think we can strike Integrity, Diplomacy and Pragmatism from the English dictionary.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 10:28

Leclerc The British consumer is very fussy and eats the leg of lamb & chops, but won't eat most of the animal
Hence it has to be exported, or if not, slaughtered
Problems with delayed imports of animal feed may also be a reason.

Some additional cuts of lamb might be offered if it has already been slaughtered, but preparing and transporting cuts that consumers won't buy would be expensive.

The British cuts we do eat would probably become cheaper - as long as they last.
Then come the suddenly much more expensive imports

SImilarly most Uk fish is exported because it is the "wrong" kind of fish and Britain imports kind its consumers mostly eat.

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 10:31

.