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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
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53
Lonelyheart2020 · 12/01/2019 23:05

This is just crazy I’m so confused and so worried about it all !

nicoala1 · 12/01/2019 23:08

With my optimistic nature, I doubt Britain will ever leave the EU, but will pretend that it is for years.

Quietrebel · 12/01/2019 23:08

Thanks Red! Great summary.
It's that sickening feeling just before the rollercoaster tips over into crazy loops (some people enjoy the feeling, it makes me feel only really sick!)

1tisILeClerc · 12/01/2019 23:09

Thanks again RTB!

JustAnotherPoster00 · 12/01/2019 23:13

PMK Thanks Red

Quietrebel · 12/01/2019 23:18

This is mostly symbolic in value but worth remembering the UK still has friends, not everyone wants it to go:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-meps-european-parliament-final-say-peoples-vote-second-referendum-a8723066.html?amp

Loletta · 12/01/2019 23:18

The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling

Absolutely! Leaving UC aside for a minute, if we leave with no deal the DWP would need to clarify what happens to the Right to Reside test amongst many other issues currently tied to EU law to determine entitlement to welfare benefits. I haven't seen one piece of guidance on the issue. I have no clue how the DWP think will deal with this...Hmm and with limited resources too? 🙄

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:18

lonelyheart, I've tried to keep it as simple and clear as I could. It all looks UTTERLY nuts as as if absoluetely everyone is working in completely different directions.

In terms of moving parts against each other we have:
No 10.
The Remain Section of the Cabinet
The Leave Section of the Cabinet
The ERG
The 'Grievers'
The 'Norway Group'
Corbyn
The Labour Leavers
The Rest of the Labour Party who don't know who the fuck to follow.
The Rest of the Tory Party who want to leave, but not leave like nutters
The SNP
The DUP
The Liberal Democrats
Plaid
The Various Independents
And finally Jared O'Mara when he can be bothered to turn up

And a lot of them are working actively against the interests of those in their own party or are on the 'same side' as each other. And you kind of have to keep a track on all of them.

We haven't had it yet, but can you imagine if we have a vote thats a dead heat apart from the tellers, deputy speaker / speaker?

Its really not beyond the realms of possibility at this stage.

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Lonelyheart2020 · 12/01/2019 23:24

I have kept up and understand most of what’s going on just I am seriously worried.
I’m likely to be one of people who are just hit time and time again.
I’m a single mum to a very poorly little girl who was already hit by the benefit system last year which has had on going effects that I literally feel sick that the country is going to do down the pan and my daughters future.

nicoala1 · 12/01/2019 23:28

@Quietrebel

No one wants UK to leave the EU. But UK appears to want to do this anyway, without any plan.

That is the situation. Stay in and you have friends on board. Go out and you will not.

If only we knew what the decision might be at this stage, that is the issue now, the indecision and fudging, and all the rest of it is painfully embarrassing. Right down to the wire.

I am sure the UK is totally admired for its decisiveness, forward planning, and tenacity right now. NOT.

MissMalice · 12/01/2019 23:29

PMK. It all feels like it’s getting a bit nasty now.

Tonsilss · 12/01/2019 23:30

.

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:33

Quiet, the Independent was the only newspaper I didn't reference.

Mainly because the idea of a PV isn't one that I can see hitting the Commons this week. It might be the public's most popular choice, but I don't really see it gathering momentum in the Commons on any great level yet. Not in a serious way. How to stop No Deal and an alternative to the WA are quite rightly being discussed first and foremost. Because the problem with a PV is that it doesn't solve the problem of 'what is the plan'. Instead a PV only presents a vague idea in which we don't know what the options are. Its a fantasy which isn't much more developed than the concept of 'leave the EU'. 'Have a people's vote' - what does that even mean?

MPs have to nail down details of options if they don't like the WA. And bloody quick. The PV is just more chaos in many respects for this reason, because it doesn't move to resolve questions, it just seeks to create new ones.

That's not to say that many MPs support a PV. Its just that its a half baked idea at this stage at least and I'm growing increasingly wary of MPs who are proposing it as some kind of solution. Its just not.

The original referendum created a political void. A second, without being properly thought out, would just do the same. What we need at this time is some sort of power, group or leadership to emerge to fill in that void and yes 'take control of Brexit' properly. Like it should have from the very beginning. And yes I bloody hope its a competent sane grouping who genuinely have the national interest at heart that grasps that, rather than the reptiles of the ERG who are trying hard to fill that void.

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RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:35

www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-46853677?ns_mchannel=social&ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbcnews

The BBC kindly have all the front pages here which are of a readable size.

OP posts:
MelanieCheeks · 12/01/2019 23:41

May you live in interesting times-old Chinese curse.

May: you live in interesting times! -comment on current pm.

nicoala1 · 12/01/2019 23:43

UK thinks it has the mother of all Parliaments.

We shall see.

This thread will be full very soon I think. AGAIN!

And thanks to OP RTB as always.

Just asking when the WA vote is defeated WHAT is the point of TM going to Brussels FGS? Maybe someone could enlighten me there.

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:44

By the end of this week, we will all be well versed in the prose of Erskine May....

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BigChocFrenzy · 12/01/2019 23:45

Great OP, red 💐

I had just seen the front pages, gasped and unintentionally swallowed toothpaste and then saw you have already given us an OP to summarise what's happening.

Brexit may yet destroy both main parties

  • thoroughly deserved too, especially the Tories, for decades of incompetence and then the final abysmal performance by both on Brexit
RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:46

WHAT is the point of TM going to Brussels FGS? Maybe someone could enlighten me there.

To get the fuck away from the mess of her own party and to let them all plot against and kill each other in her absence??

Or just to avoid the British Press?

Or both, to get some peace and quiet to work out wtf she's going to do next?

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BestIsWest · 12/01/2019 23:49

PMK

1tisILeClerc · 12/01/2019 23:50

Meanwhile it is 'whack-a-mole Saturday night on MN.

1tisILeClerc · 12/01/2019 23:52

{WHAT is the point of TM going to Brussels FGS? Maybe someone could enlighten me there.}
They do some nice coffee and croissants in the European Parliament building, and it is away from the nutters in the UK.

nicoala1 · 12/01/2019 23:53

Who will be willing to meet her in Brussels anyway. They are totally fed up with the shenanigans, and surely they know that any visit there unilaterally could be shunned as being a cynical move.

Does she have to be invited there anyway firstly?

But the EU will not shun her. EU have given everything they could on behalf of the 27. What the heck is left now?

ROI is very worried though. And I don't blame them. They do not deserve a kick in the teeth again from a former colonial entity. That is not good. I am talking about GFA and borders and all that. A big issue, but not that big for the UK Government at all obv.

That might be where EU says to UK to take a hike.

1tisILeClerc · 12/01/2019 23:59

(Who will be willing to meet her in Brussels anyway}
Going to Brussels doesn't mean she has to actually see anybody, just sit in the coffee bar.
The evil in me wants to see her surrounded by a circle of 27 EU leaders who in their own languages tell her to f%ck off.
Trouble is they are all too diplomatic so will probably add 'please'.

IrenetheQuaint · 13/01/2019 00:03

Thanks Red! Wine