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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

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Peregrina · 15/01/2019 16:39

Perhaps Clegg expected Cameron to behave like a gentleman though? I know it's going off the Brexit topic, but when they stitched them up over the PR vote, the Lib Dems should have said 'the Coalition's off' and gone for confidence and supply. The Tory behaviour is like that of the scorpion - it's in its nature to sting, so the Tories can't be trusted. (As the EU knows with the backstop!)

The Lib Dems are solely responsible for their decision-making on that front - it's not the Tories' fault or anybody else's.

So by the same token, will Labour get away with cosying up to the Tories over Brexit? No one is forcing Corbyn to do this - not his paid up membership, at least.

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 17:26

The LibDems took a view to do what was best for the UK - avoid a weak government - and stuck with it. It's what we claim we want our politicians to do.

Having done that, they then had to face the juvenile electorate who decided it was easier to play yah-boo than actually think about the situation.

Since hardly anyone has mentioned the Tories abandoning their manifesto pledge to remain in the Single Market, it seems the Great British Public have strange ideals. And thus we get the politicians and governments we deserve.

With the benefit of passing years, I suspect that had the tuition fees volte-face not happened, the British press electorate would have found another cross and 3 nails.

But we are where we are.

Sostenueto · 15/01/2019 17:57

Really forceful speeches going on ahead of the vote. Ah well at least the MPs are animated! Too little too late IMO.

Ta1kinPeace · 15/01/2019 18:00

Tuition Fees
They should stay at the same level
but the interest rate should be dropped to base plus 0.25%
backdates through all outstanding loans

that way my kids will not have £6000 of interest added before they graduate

dropping the level of fees will bugger up University funding
dropping the interest rate will make people more willing to go to Uni

Oh and the Economist has some cool ideas about how to make the Uni's stop wasting the fees money Grin

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 18:03

There's a suggestion that students with low A level grades should not be eligible for a student loan ... I saw it on my phone in t'doctors ...

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/poor-a-level-grades-to-cost-pupils-degree-place-9n9npzbql

looks like it's a few weeks old. Surprised it hasn't gathered more traction ?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 15/01/2019 18:05

I agree talkin

Its the interest rate im gobsmacked by!!

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 15/01/2019 18:05

Well that an

Nowhere expoly being the same price as durham

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 18:07

dropping the interest rate will make people more willing to go to Uni

But do we really need more people going to "Uni" ? Quite aside from the fact that education should be life-long with a dip-in-dip-out approach (so people can pick up stuff in their 30s and 40s) university should really be a more academic institution which not everybody is suited to. Or indeed wants to attend.

(We're returning to my assertion that the education system is run for the benefit of the educators, rather than the students ....)

Buteo · 15/01/2019 18:11

I had a YouGov survey yesterday about the perception and value of BTECs and whether they make people more or less employable than similar level qualifications.

HateIsNotGood · 15/01/2019 18:15

Redux version - I agree that the best way forward is WA, it means that negotiations on the many, many salient points can be negotiated to Accord and remain workable until then. I voted to Leave and haven't changed my mind about that and won't. I knew it would be very complicated and I am not surprised by anything to date.

And I won't be surprised by anything that happens. I would prefer that Parliament accepts the WA and if they don't I am fully-'prepped' for any possible chaos because I always am anyway, many years of off-grid, near self-sufficiency and bartering have ensured that.

The side shows are packing up and heading to the Main Tent now, so we can only wait and see.

Best wishes everyone - and I mean everyone.

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 18:18

I had a YouGov survey yesterday about the perception and value of BTECs and whether they make people more or less employable than similar level qualifications.

Well you'd need a sea change in the attitude of businesses too.

On the occasions I've been involved in recruiting, I've (discreetly) ignored qualifications. Especially things like MSCEs or MSCDs (or whatever there is nowadays). I'm sure we've all known people with a double first from Cambridge and Oxford who you wouldn't leave alone with a kettle.

Sostenueto · 15/01/2019 18:21

I think it ridiculous that students have to apply to uni on predicted grades not actual grades. A lot of students predictions can be wrong especially as when they apply they have not finished the course. My dgd needs AAA for Cambridge she may only be AAB in June then next year ace it in the real exams but will be unable to apply for Cambridge based on her predicted grades. ( scenario) so will lose out on going to Cambridge. Also applying when you actually have the grades will stop unconditional offers ( where students tend not to work so hard as they already have offer) and then drop out when they cannot cope.

If JCs amendment goes through will there still be a vote on the WA?

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 18:28

I think it ridiculous that students have to apply to uni on predicted grades not actual grades

As I said, whose benefit is the system run for ?

HateIsNotGood · 15/01/2019 18:31

Sos - I believe so - but it's up to Bercow and whatever anyone's personal view of him is as a person, he knows his stuff about Parliamentary Process, which is why he's had his job for so long. Just like Betty.

MissMalice · 15/01/2019 18:33

Have you lot missed the new thread?

Ta1kinPeace · 15/01/2019 18:33

DGRosetti
The Economist suggested a while back that Unis got
50% of each tuition fee when the student enrolled for that year
30% of each tuition fee when the student graduated from the course
20% when the student started repaying their loan.

It would necessitate taking Nurses out of the loans system
but that is a good thing in itself

it would mean that full time Uni courses would return to being for the purely academically flexible
and then the vast bulk of professional / vocational training would be funded by employers

Ta1kinPeace · 15/01/2019 18:34

MissMalice
No, we are just finishing off a different conversation on this one Smile

prettybird · 15/01/2019 19:04

Interest rates on Scottish (SAAS) student loans (maintenance loans only as we don't past tuition fees Wink) are only 1.5% (but can change if vase rate changes) but the loans have to start being paid back at a lower level of warnings.

borntobequiet · 15/01/2019 19:25

I know quite a few people (ex sixth form tutor) who scraped into HE on low grades for a variety of reasons, and went on to do very well. Equally I know high flyers who didn’t do well. Good grades are not necessarily predictors of success, neither are poor grades necessarily predictors of failure.

Peregrina · 15/01/2019 19:27

Nowhere expoly being the same price as durham

But in fact, nowhere expoly will almost certainly have areas where they outshine Durham. They might also be doing much more to get people who were disadvantaged at school through high level courses, which open up new horizons and good jobs.

Peregrina · 15/01/2019 19:36

Cameron, Johnson, May - all Oxford educated. Are they more able than someone who went to an ex poly? Discuss.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 15/01/2019 19:55

Cameron, Johnson, May - all Oxford educated. Are they more able than someone who went to an ex poly? Discuss.
No
As in no they're not more able not no I won't discuss Grin

prettybird · 15/01/2019 20:02

The neighboroughing LA to Glasgow gets excellent results and many people who don't do their homework move out there, especially for secondary schooling and pay the inflated house prices. The good results are due in large part to demographics (very middle class, little deprivation) but also due to hot housing and spoon feeding their pupils.

As a result, their pupils have not just a high drop out rate at Uni but the highest drop at Glasgow Uni Sad

(contrast that with ds' old school which gets excellent results given its demographic, above the "virtual comparator" which doesn't include the fact that there are 55 languages spoken at the school Hmm, and also takes very seriously its responsibility to turn out well rounded, self starting individuals Grin)

TokyoSushi · 15/01/2019 20:05

Closes thread Grin

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