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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
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53
1tisILeClerc · 15/01/2019 13:55

{Does anyone think she might win tonight?}
A prize for stubbornness perhaps?

RedToothBrush · 15/01/2019 13:55

James Forsyth @jgforsyth
Something is going on. Chief Whip just came into the PM to talk to May. Edward Leigh is now calling on the government to ‘unite the party’ and accept his amendment

OP posts:
SusanWalker · 15/01/2019 13:56

I wonder if there could be an agreement where the backstop has a legal end date, with a condition that if a trade deal has not been agreed that allows an open border, there will be an Irish border poll before the end date.

Loletta · 15/01/2019 13:56

What are the chances of a NCV succeeding if TM loses today? I can't see how her defecting MPs and DUPs can support her in a NCV if she loses today. It's very hypocritical. She's bet everything on the WA, made it her own very personal plan, so ho can they vote against it but not want to oust her? She's saying she has nothing else to offer, she doesn't want to change course. So what's the point of having her as PM after today? I didn't get much support for this view when I expressed it on this forum a few weeks ago. Would be curious to see if anyone else agree with me today?

JSmitty · 15/01/2019 13:57

May has unleashed the windbag agan because it worked so well last time.

Plan B is to scratch out the A and write "B" in crayon.

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 13:57

Does anyone think she might win tonight

I'm wondering if she'll pull the MV after the amendments have been voted on (have no idea if she can do this, but then neither has she).

The "logic" will be that since it's widely reported as not passing, there's no need to vote on it.

That opens the door to bringing it back next week, for a repeat of this pantomime ( OH NO IT DOESN'T )

rinse and repeat.

The speaker can't prevent it being redebated if it's not been voted on, I suspect.

TatianaLarina · 15/01/2019 14:04

“After Brexit vote No 10 draws up secret contingency plans:”

“Theresa May’s EU emissary, Olly Robbins, has been working up secret contingency plans for cross-party talks aimed at testing MPs’ backing for up to six different Brexit options were the prime minister to lose Tuesday’s vote by a significant margin, the Guardian has learned.

“With parliament all but certain to reject her painstakingly negotiated deal in the “meaningful vote”, Robbins has been helping to scope out options for what happens next.

“One approach being seriously considered is a period of negotiation that could be overseen by civil servants, with the aim of testing which of up to six options could command a majority in the Commons.

“Olly has been on a mission,” said one Whitehall source. It has not yet been decided whether the government would open the door to direct talks with the Labour leadership over what should happen next – or seek to work through backbench channels, the Guardian understands.

“Whitehall’s role could reflect that played by senior Cabinet Office civil servants, including the then cabinet secretary, the late Jeremy Heywood, during coalition talks after the 2010 general election, which resulted in the Conservative-Liberal Democrat alliance.

“MPs could then vote on whatever Brexit plan emerged from the talks as most likely to command majority support – potentially including the Norway-style approach championed by the former Tory minister Nick Boles.

“However, it is not expected that the process would consider options that involve reversing the referendum result.

“May has given little indication even to her cabinet that she is willing to consider alternatives to her plan, and if she lost by a narrow margin could still decide to return to Brussels in a bid to tease out more concessions.”

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/15/after-brexit-vote-no-10-plans-for-cross-party-talks-on-plan-b-options

whymewhynow · 15/01/2019 14:05

I wonder if there could be an agreement where the backstop has a legal end date, with a condition that if a trade deal has not been agreed that allows an open border, there will be an Irish border poll before the end date.

I can't see the DUP agreeing to that. And getting the DUP to agree to something is what this is all about.

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 14:07

“MPs could then vote on whatever Brexit plan emerged from the talks as most likely to command majority support – potentially including the Norway-style approach championed by the former Tory minister Nick Boles.

So using Labour to effectively neuter the ERG headbangers ?

We're still looking at a spectacular Tory bust up then.

whymewhynow · 15/01/2019 14:08

Why would Labour - or any other party - step up to help the Tories out of their self-created mess? It baffles me that after all this time - and all these rejections and humiliations - the Government still thinks it can put forward cross-party co-operation as a feasible option.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 14:09

According to Erkine May (Parliamentary bible) it is the Speaker who decides if a new bill is too similar to a previous one for the HoC to be asked to vote on !

Bercow has shown he won't be bullied by the executive

imo, he'd only agree later if sufficient MPs tell him they have changed their minds

  • he seems to be alway in favour of letting MPs vote, but not letting the executive steamroller them.

So, May will have to think of something else

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 14:11

Why would Labour - or any other party - step up to help the Tories out of their self-created mess?

Because some Labour MPs are as fanatical as the ERG headbangers over Brexit. So inviting the Labour party into discussions would potentially trigger a split there too.

Pestons (buried) comment about an explosion of the parties as we know them might not be so far fetched.

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 14:12

According to Erkine May (Parliamentary bible) it is the Speaker who decides if a new bill is too similar to a previous one for the HoC to be asked to vote on !

only if a vote has happened.

I wonder if this "cross party" guff is intended as a fig leaf for pulling the vote "in the light of approaches made by Her Majesties Loyal Opposition" ?

Motheroffourdragons · 15/01/2019 14:14

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 15/01/2019 14:14

Dan Bloom
‏*@danbloom1*
Just to give everyone some perspective, our resident Google expert @daisynaylorr tells me an "alarming" number of people are still searching What Is Brexit?

MissMalice · 15/01/2019 14:15

I think concealing plan B until plan A has fallen is reasonable. My fear is that she doesn’t have a realistic Plan B.

TatianaLarina · 15/01/2019 14:15

This 6 options lark is of course where May should have started 2.5 years ago if she hadn’t been so desperately unintelligent.

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 14:15

Just to give everyone some perspective, our resident Google expert @daisynaylorr tells me an "alarming" number of people are still searching What Is Brexit?

Or the bots are back ...

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 14:19

I hope someone has informed the EU that the UK is now going back to the beginning, to decide what it actually wants 🤔

I doubt if the EU would allow the WA itself to be changed - including the backstop
The internal UK discussions would probably require an extension.

However, if the HoC & the govt ever agree on a new final destination,
then the aim of the final relationship could be changed in the PD text with a few weeks hard drafting by the EU sherpas

  • they did this amazingly quickly to create the WA text after May's late complete U-Turn
JustAnotherPoster00 · 15/01/2019 14:19

I'm suprised Ken Clarke supports it

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 14:22

Mother and others who think May will resign:

Why should she ?

She's astonishly safe in her own position as PM:

She can't be challenged as Tory leader until December
Labour can't win a NC vote, because neither the ERG not the DUP will support that

Are you expecting she has a sense of shame and contrition ?

She will cling to office like the stubborn limpet she is,
until Brexit (or much less likely, Revoke)

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 14:24

Um ..

Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn

Most striking contribution in Cabinet came from Brandon Lewis, someone in the room tells me.
Tory chairman came down very hard on opening talks with Labour:
“The party wouldn’t wear it,” he said.

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 14:26

Most striking contribution in Cabinet came from Brandon Lewis, someone in the room tells me. Tory chairman came down very hard on opening talks with Labour: “The party wouldn’t wear it,” he said.

Which party ?

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 14:26

After Bercow refused the Murrison ammendment:

Sam Coates Times Retweeted Paul Waugh@paulwaugh

Looks to me again like Bercow is forcing Govt to be more transparent

ie if they want those amendments, they should do written manuscript amendments of their own, not hide behind backbenchers.

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 14:28

Labour Whipss@labourwhips*

Mr Speaker has announced that he has provisionally selected four Amdts:
(a) Labour’s,
(k) SNP
(b) Leigh and
(f) Baron.

Votes expected from 7pm tonight. #MeaningfulVote