Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
AwdBovril · 14/12/2018 09:46

Worrying times.
Thanks for the new thread, Red.

Bagadverts · 14/12/2018 09:48

Thanks Red.

lonelyplanetmum · 14/12/2018 09:49

PMK

I want James Patrick to be right, not you RedThanks ThanksThanksbut the problem is I think you've called everything correctly so far.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2018 09:54

Thanks red Star

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:56

James Patrick's record has been good so far. He predicted us going to a full on no deal footing from mid Jan.

That's still on either way.

OP posts:
1tisILeClerc · 14/12/2018 09:56

Thanks again Red

Blahblahblah111 · 14/12/2018 09:59

This reply has been withdrawn

Message from MNHQ: This post has been withdrawn

ClashCityRocker · 14/12/2018 10:01

Place mat King.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; it's the hope that kills you.

Off to reinventory the brexit stockpile.... Dh better learn to love fray bentos pies really quickly. 🙄 🙄

borntobequiet · 14/12/2018 10:03

Thanks Red. And have a lovely Christmas everyone.

MayHasNineLives · 14/12/2018 10:08

It looks like stockpiling is required in the new year, enjoy this Christmas everyone.

lonelyplanetmum · 14/12/2018 10:12

Happy Christmas 🎄 Born!

I just read James Patrick's letter from earlier this week apologies if it was already linked to.

"We wouldn't go to war simply on the basis half of the registered electorate wanted to without the intervention of Parliamentarians debating our national interest. And Brexit is truly no different. The duty of authority is the same as the duty of a parent, and sometimes that means preventing self harm with a cool head and explaining why you have done so"

The analogies are endless, revolving doors, divorces, parachutes, cliffs and cheese submarines.

Except on this analogy the parents are fighting among themselves.

www.byline.com/column/67/article/2372

OhYouBadBadKitten · 14/12/2018 10:24

I agree with you with regards to Labour RTB. How can they be so ineffectual and weak?

It's just all so so so stupid. arghhhhhhhhhhh.

ok, I need to go and do some breathing exercises. again.

usuallydormant · 14/12/2018 10:29

Still the best place to catch up on Brexit Flowers RTB.

May has absolutely nothing to lose, has she? Which is a very dangerous situation. She obviously doesn't care if people respect her or not, she knows her time as PM is coming to an end but they can't get rid of her for another year now, and she doesn't seem overly concerned about her place in the history books. She is just plodding on doggedly with her blinkers on.

So my bet at this point is that she is going to flog her WA until the end and pull a revoke if it doesn't fly. Cause she's not mad enough to go off the actual cliff but she won't care if she stresses millions of people all over Europe out in the meantime.... And that is what a lot of people in WM are probably betting which means they are never going to vote for the WA.

There's no time for a PV. Referendum laws are not fit for purpose in the UK and although the figures are shifting, it is not enough to take that risk. And social media is still a nightmare to control so from an EU point of view, better to pull off the plaster now than another 6 months of faffing while the UK runs a nasty and divisive referendum.

Peregrina · 14/12/2018 10:38

placemat king - am going away for the weekend but wonder if this thread will fill up before I am back!

bellinisurge · 14/12/2018 10:43

Only thread, in fact, only place for news these days. Great work everyone, particularly @RedToothBrush

Mrsr8 · 14/12/2018 10:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IsobelKarev · 14/12/2018 10:46

I think I understand that one of the issues with the backstop is that the UK doesn't have the right to unilaterally withdraw from it. Is that normal in international agreements?

MonkeysMummy17 · 14/12/2018 10:53

I've found these threads incredibly useful in understanding what is going on, thanks RTB for taking the time to run them and answer questions.

I have, for the first time, contacted my labour MP and let him know my concerns. Not sure it makes any difference at this stage, TM doesn't listen to her own cabinet let alone her party, the opposition, members of the public, the media, EU leaders. I only hope when the time comes she will listen to her conscience, however her track record says otherwise and there is a strong sense of impending doom. At least there is wine. For now at least.

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 14/12/2018 10:53

PMK

Planning to revisit stockpiling after Christmas. DCs are actively worrying about food supply, I wasn’t aware I had talked about it in front of them Sad SadSad.

Another one here who has started praying - I have a constant refrain of “please don’t let this happen, please don’t let this happen” in my head. Not sure who I am addressing this to though.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 10:54

Is that normal in international agreements?

We have the GFA and that's essentially what the backstop is about. Is it normal to break peace treaties?

What happens to your international standing when you do?

ALL treaties are based on both parties respecting it. You can always decide you don't respect it and break it, but there are extreme consequences for doing so. Regardless of whether it's legally or politically binding.

The point of the backstop is precisely because of our loss of International trust and respect that Brexit has created.

OP posts:
BollocksToBrexit · 14/12/2018 11:00

So what's her next cunning plan?

prettybird · 14/12/2018 11:01

My perception is that the backstop is there because Ireland and the EU don't trust the UK not to break the international peace treaty that is the GFA/the Belfast Agreement. And all the words from the Government, the Brexiters and the DUP have just proven that the distrust is fully justified.

If the UK Government were honest and just said that they couldn't continue to abide by the GFA given that "Brexit means Brexit" Hmm, then the backstop wouldn't be needed.

But that would unleash a whole different and awful shitstorm. Sad

On that depressing note, PMK.

1tisILeClerc · 14/12/2018 11:02

{ Cause she's not mad enough to go off the actual cliff but she won't care if she stresses millions of people all over Europe out in the meantime}
An exceptionally stupid strategy. The UK has already cost the good folk in Euroland a BIG pile of money and quite rightly they are getting a bit 'pissed off'. If the 'plan' is to revoke as the last minute you actually NEED the EU to want you to stay. Continual stupidity and undiplomatic speeches and behaviour for the last 2 years is one thing but to force the EU to ramping up preparations now so that the UK can eat and do business in April and then revoke at the last minute is crazy.
Stuck in a cage with a lion, you don't deliberately poke it with a stick!

bellinisurge · 14/12/2018 11:04

@WhatWouldScoobyDoo so sorry if your kids are getting worried. Pop over to the Prepper topic for some sensible, non panicky, budget friendly ideas. I witter on about this so much, I'm not sure if I've already told you this.
Imagine 3 days snowed in. What would you eat for breakfast dinner and tea. No need to buy spam unless you actually like it (I hate it) Grin. Also make sure you have things like toothpaste and soap - I always ran out of these just when I need them.
Also have treats like chocolate. Also have tea/coffee. Everyone will be grumpy and pissed off.
If you want to buy shelf stable stuff instead of filling up your freezer, there are options. Maybe ones you aren't used to but definitely there.
Don't forget your pets.

Peregrina · 14/12/2018 11:06

Walking too near the edge of a cliff is maybe OK when the weather is calm, but when it's rougher it only needs a big puff of wind to send you over. The political weather is not calm at the moment.

Swipe left for the next trending thread