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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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Peregrina · 17/12/2018 23:19

Advice states UK will be legally obliged to take part in European Parliament elections in May of next and subsequently have send British MEPs to Brussels if it extends A50

In which case, we need to get our acts together and vote in some decent MEPs, and get Farage and Co cleared out.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/12/2018 05:24

Trying to piece out the motivation behind the shenanigans:

May: A big reason to ramp up No Deal prepping - apart from trying to reduce the damage to the UK -
is to convince the EU that the UK is serious about accepting No Deal and hence they should emasculate the backstop in the WA

Corbyn: Isn't one reason is avoiding a meaningful type of No Confidence vote that if it fails,
the last Labour Party conference agreement would require Labour then to push for a PV ?

BigChocFrenzy · 18/12/2018 05:27

There are a few upsides to the EU if the UK does Brexit:

A main one is not having to put up with sleazy, insulting UKIP MEPs and many unpleasantly delusional Tory ones too,
all trying to spread hard right poison and disrupt business

and now probably, no longer having to talk to the Maybot, the pig-poker, the village idiot or whoever we next choose as PM

BigChocFrenzy · 18/12/2018 05:38

Does May think that No Deal - which she would blame on the EU & Remainers -
would harm the Tory party more
than Revoke and all-out Tory party civil war - which could not be blamed on anyone else ?

That determines whether she Revokes at the lst minute, or (reluctantly, imo) lets the clock run out and No Deal happen

lonelyplanetmum · 18/12/2018 07:11

Advice states UK will be legally obliged to take part in European Parliament elections in May of next and subsequently have send British MEPs to Brussels if it extends A50

This doesn't make sense to me legally or logically. Perhaps it's to do with subtlety in the wording?

I can see it might mean legally that we would have to hold the MEP elections? But I don't think we could be forced to send the MEPs. Conversely I don't think the U.K. govt could stop them going?

I suppose the U.K. govt could issue an instruction that it was preferred if they didn't attend so the Conservative ones would presumably not go? Then I'm guessing if attendance drops to 0 they'd be disqualified?

I can see it's right under an extension that the Other countries could not say you aren't entitled to take up your seats. However we could unilaterally say we won't send MEPs and won't take up our seats? Like Sinn Fein don't take their Westminster seats.

Just rambling thoughts now...An analogy comes from normal civil law. Specific performance is a contractual legal remedy if one party breaks a contract then courts can order the party in breach to do something to complete performance of the contract. ... BUT this specific performance is not available as a remedy for any broken contracts which required personal services such as employment contracts because such an order would restrict an individual's freedom.

So I can see how legally we should hold EU MEP elections but I really don't see how it would fit with other legal principles to make MEPs take up their seats. I suppose conversely the U.K. government couldn't stop Labour ,LibDem, UKIP MEPs taking up their seats though?

Couldn't UK/EU agree non participation? I'm sure the other member states would agree.

festivedogbone · 18/12/2018 07:32

Does May think that No Deal - which she would blame on the EU & Remainers -
would harm the Tory party more
than Revoke and all-out Tory party civil war - which could not be blamed on anyone else ?

This is exactly it, and why I worry we are heading for No Deal. Revoking will "harm democracy" and definitely the Tory party, No Deal will majorly screw us all but the Tory party can just claim they were following "the will of the people".

bellinisurge · 18/12/2018 07:36

Parliament will stop No Deal. With or without her. It would be irresponsible not to.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/12/2018 07:41

How can they legally stop No Deal, bellini ? - other than passing the WA of course

BigChocFrenzy · 18/12/2018 07:43

and sadly we've learned: if there's any delusional, irresponsible course - our politicians will probably take it

bellinisurge · 18/12/2018 07:47

Pass WA or table an emergency vote - the mechanics of which I am not sure about. But I'm pretty sure can be done.

bellinisurge · 18/12/2018 07:48

It has to be legislation to stop legislation but I am sure they can do it.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/12/2018 08:09

bellini Constitutionally, the HoC cannot order that No Deal be stopped;
they can only vote for an alternative that May gives them - the WA

Under the (mostly unwritten) constitution, a UK PM has far greater freedom of action and far fewer checks on her power than the heads of govt of other Western democracies.

The only alternative is to bring her down with a majority vote of No Confidence and replace her with a suitable leader who can command a majority,
so at least 315 seats plus their own.

A GE would be be a huge gamble, as would Corbyn
and would take up at least 3.5 more weeks of the remaining time.

Forming a new govt without a GE would require a substantial number of Tory rebels to support it - v v unlikely

BigChocFrenzy · 18/12/2018 08:11

Only the PM can Revoke and there seems no legal way to force her.

Indeed, if there were an HoC vote on Revoke atm, I doubt if it would pass
Maybe later, if Sterling & British shares crash.

bellinisurge · 18/12/2018 09:35

@BigChocFrenzy whatever it takes to avoid No Deal, I am almost certain it will be done.

lonelyplanetmum · 18/12/2018 09:42

I hope you're right Bellini. The thing is, the only thing writ in Stone is that Art 50 was (foolishly) triggered with Parliament's consent.

In a way Gina Millar saved TM from herself. If TM had had her way the responsibility for the timing of that trigger would have been TMs alone. At least the timing is arguably a joint Parliamentary responsibility now.

As a result the status quo ends by April fool's Day whether we like it or not.

GirlsBlouse17 · 18/12/2018 13:50

If there is a general election, I will vote Lib dems. Am pretty sure they would offer a second referendum

Parker231 · 18/12/2018 17:02

apple.news/AMzkPgAlRTlqggkD8gsIXLQ

This is getting more stupid by the day!

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