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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

OP posts:
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TokyoSushi · 14/12/2018 13:31

I agree @OhYouBadBadKitten I'm surprised she isn't ill. She must be stressed beyond belief.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2018 13:31

Sam Coates Times
‏*@SamCoatesTimes*
PM:

  • I was "crystal clear" about what I needed
  • MPs will require further assurances
  • The EU is clear that further clarification and discussion "is in fact possible"
  • There is work still to do
  • It in the overwhelming interest to get this done

PM

  • Asked "yes or no" whether she would contemplate WTO rules "I believe it is better to leave with a deal"
2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 14/12/2018 13:33

“Christopher Hope
@christopherhope
The
@Telegraph
understands that as many as 12 ministers are among the 117 MPs who voted against Mrs May and are facing retribution from a furious Number 10.
A source says the whips are now “going through the process” to identify ministers who had no confidence in Mrs May. “

So not such a secret ballot then!

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 14/12/2018 13:38

Thanks for the prepping advice, bellini. Flowers It’s so much easier to think of it as three days snowed in as that holds back the panic! I will absolutely focus on it after Xmas - it will help the DCs if they can see a physical pile of extra food. Good point about remembering pets too!

Re. Meds, DH needs the glaucoma drops - so far he can only get one month at a time so we need to work out now whether a private prescription will work for those.

I have discovered online chemists will sell birth control pills without a prescription & so have stocked up on extras - don’t want hormone issues on top of everything else!!!

Talkinpeece · 14/12/2018 13:42

I have come to the conclusion that the analysis on these threads is better than on ANY of the TV news or in most of the papers
I'd love to know who some posters really are because you are BLERDY well informed

I met a Border Force officer this week and joked about the end of March.
He said nothing but the flash of pain and fear across his face for a second said it all.

bellinisurge · 14/12/2018 13:48

@WhatWouldScoobyDoo thank you. My hope is that people who can sort themselves a bit will do so to avoid confrontation and dramas at supermarkets etc. These usually end up with needing the emergency services to intervene. I would rather the emergency services and the NHS focus on people who need help rather than people who get themselves into avoidable trouble.

SusanWalker · 14/12/2018 13:48

Place marking with a feeling of despair mixed with a total lack of surprise.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 13:48

Matt Dathan@mattdathan (Sun)_
_
Excl: Theresa May's crunch Commons vote on her Brexit deal has been pencilled in for January 14th:_

< until she has to apply her eraser again >

Mrsr8 · 14/12/2018 13:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Parker231 · 14/12/2018 13:49

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46564884

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2018 13:51

Jeremy Cliffe
‏*@JeremyCliffe*
Diplomatic source from a core EU country tells me negative tone from EU27 last night was a misfire - and one produced not by calculation but by collective weariness at the endless Brexit aggro from UK
This is something second referendum types in the UK need to bear in mind. EU27 are heartily sick of Brexit & have other pressing problems (see my column: www.economist.com/europe/2018/12/15/europes-summiteers-have-little-to-celebrate-besides-not-being-british …). They wouldn't block Bre-entry but nor would they tolerate months of further aggro in its name.

See also this by @thomasklau: www.politico.eu/article/why-the-eu-should-fear-a-second-uk-referendum/

turnipsaretheonlyveg · 14/12/2018 13:52

One of the most frustrating things is how little companies are saying in public about what their expectations about the impact of a no deal on issues like food prices, supply and range are and what they are saying and doing in private.
The whole narrative is so toxic that very few are able to actually be honest about the impact of what we are looking at.

Deadsouls · 14/12/2018 13:53

Nothing new in that press conference. Isn't the deal the same as before?

howabout · 14/12/2018 13:53

2bees if it's 12 senior Ministers given the current debacle at the EU I suggest they may come for TM before she comes for them.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2018 13:58

Robert Peston
‏*@Peston*
Even if @theresa_may finally gets MPs to approve her Brexit plan, remaining preparations for Brexit - legislative and practical - are such that no EU government (or at least none I’ve spoken to here in Brussels) believes we can actually leave EU on 29 March. Sorry. Not true...

...There is one EU leader who maintains UK definitely Brexiting on 29 March: @theresa_may. Goodness only knows how she thinks she’ll pull that off, unless we have a chaotic no-deal departure

boatyardblues · 14/12/2018 13:59

Placemat King. Although these threads move so fast I’m a getting underfoot without contributing sort of poster, a bit like the UK in the EU.

golondrina · 14/12/2018 14:01

Placemarking

1tisILeClerc · 14/12/2018 14:02

Turnips
I think that NDAs have been sprinkled around like confetti so no one who really knows is able to speak. Certainly the major manufacturers have been 'knobbled'.
Of course smaller companies that might be struggling will be keeping it quiet as they don't want competitors to know, for risk of takeovers etc.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 14:10

Channel 5 Newss@5*_News

NEW - Two expert lipreaders tell 5 News that Theresa May accuses Jean-Claude Juncker of describing her as nebulous.
...
Juncker's comments which appear to have angered May:
"We would like our British friends to, within a few weeks, set our their expectations for us.
Because we are in a debate that is sometimes nebulous and imprecise."
....
Asked about this exchange, Theresa May admitted the pair had a "robust" exchange" but that Juncker said he used the term "nebulous" in relation to a "general level of debate" and not her personally.

< blimey, after 2 years of faffing around, abuse, reneging ... she's very lucky if "nebulous" is the worst she hears ! >

howabout · 14/12/2018 14:15

Quite a bit of theorising that the whole exchange with Juncker was stage managed to give the impression TM was standing up for herself - would be surprised if anyone thinks she is capable of pulling off even the perception of that. Shock

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 14:17

I'm not sure how having her last 2 ½ years work described as "nebulous" helps her look tough

jasjas1973 · 14/12/2018 14:20

Its a bit late to be acting the tough guy AFTER she has signed the bl00dy withdrawal agreement!!!!!

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 14:24

Excellent speech again by Ivan Richards at Liverpool Uni yesterday

Forcing him to quit him, for telling the truth to power, was one of the worst mistakes May made
The whole problem with these negotiations is that the UK side has been - and remains - delusional.

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speech-sir-ivan-rogers-on-brexit/

Even now, UK politicians, including former Conservative leaders and Foreign Secretaries really seem to think – they even write it –
that if we just asserted ourselves more aggressively in negotiations,
a typical multi-day, multi-night Summit would deliver them some fundamentally different EU offer.

But the EU is negotiating with us, not as a member, but as a prospective soon-to-be third country.

Those glorious, sweaty, fudge-filled Brussels denouements are gone.
The Prime Minister is not in a room negotiating with the 27.
That’s not how the exit game or the trade negotiation works, or was ever going to

We need, urgently, on all sides of the spectrum, to start understanding how being a “third country” is different.

And the most naïve of all on this remain the Brexiteers who fantasise about a style of negotiation which is only open to members of the club.

We are indeed, a soon-to-be third country and an opponent and rival, not just a partner, now.
Again, that is what Brexit advocates argued for.
It is time to accept the consequences. Some of those will be beyond tiresome.

And one of them will be that we shall be, like Switzerland, in a state of permanent negotiations with the EU about something highly intractable, on which they may have more metaphorical tanks than us.

Get used to it!
....
Then leave the club.
But you cannot, in the act of leaving it, expect the club fundamentally to redesign its founding principles to suit you
and to share its sovereignty with you when it still suits you,
and to dilute their agency in so doing.

It simply is not going to.
And both HMG and Brexit advocates outside it seem constantly to find this frustrating, vexatious and some kind of indication of EU ill will.

turnipsaretheonlyveg · 14/12/2018 14:28

There is also a lack of thinking issues through, if major manufacturers and food distributors were say being asked to make sure that they had a months supply of their products, or the key sellers of their products stock piled and they were having to buy/rent the warehouses to achieve this,, why aren't people asking more about the costs rises that would have to happen to cover this.
If manufacturers cannot seamlessly export their product from the UK and will now just be making it for an internal market how many jobs are likely to be transferred to other sites in the EU?
All of the focus seems to be on Westminster with almost none on what is happening out in the country.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 14:38

Ivan Rogers also notes:

Meanwhile, before we have even left, we have seen, in the last 2 ½ years,
the most anaemic boost to UK net trade triggered by ANY major sterling devaluation
since World War 2