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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 16:13

Is QT a political programme ? I'd hope not, given the level of debate. It's a programme with politicians granted by more like bear baiting with rosettes.

I'm thinking more of John Humphries trying to work out how to fellate Brexiteers while still sounding intelligible, whilst savaging any remainers with a level of aggression that scared me. And I was listening 100 miles away.

Anyway, it's moot, because I don't rely on the BBC. However, there are some who do.

Loletta · 14/12/2018 16:29

Hi all
Was listening to BB 3 Counties radio today. On the JVS show, they had a one hour discussion about WTO rules and what it would mean if we crashed out. It was refreshing that there was a panel of experts - can only remember Jason Hunter - trying to inform fuckwits Leave voters with real information and telling them the truth.
Anyway, one of the questions was what happens to the NI border on 30/3 if we crash out?
Apparently the EU will have to put a physical border up because that will be the border between the EU and Non-EU and it needs to protect its 27 member states.
So my question is: will there have to be a hard border if we end up trading under WTO rules?Are JRM, DD, BOJO etc admitting that they're de facto supporting a return to a hard border? If they are not, what lies are they selling the electorate?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2018 16:31

Carole Cadwalladr
@carolecadwalla
Okay, putting this out here now. Because it'll blow a massive hole in #PeoplesVote if it doesn't come out till later. Blair & Mandelson & Rudd - all involved with #PeoplesVote - are all compromised by their relationships with Deripaska, a central figure in Mueller's investigation

mobile.twitter.com/RTUKnews/status/1073535684676218880

Carole Cadwalladr
@carolecadwalla
We need to talk about foreign interference, #PeoplesVote. And these are not the people to do it. Get some better spokesmen/backers/funders

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/09/konstantin-kilimnik-russia-trump-manafort-mueller

Grinchly · 14/12/2018 16:31

@mrs8 re your posts last night- I just want to say as a direct result of your example I went to our local co-op and bought 15 or so store cupboarditems to donate to the food bank. I plan to do the same whenever I can.

My employer also supports paid leave for a day's volunteering. I am going to explore whether I can use that to volunteer with them. I was shocked to discover it supports over 100 families over two very small towns./ large villages. And this is a 'good area' .

So you see, your influence is reaching far beyond your own initiative. 'Be the change you want to see' and all that. Thank you for providing the incentive I needed. Smile

Hasenstein · 14/12/2018 16:32

Running just to stand still here, but PMK and thanks as ever to RTB.

I can't work out whether this awful fear of foreboding is just the same as I've been feeling for the past 3 years, or whether I'm feeling even worse about it now.

Re. NDAs: I'm sure there's a whole lot of stuff businesses and other organisations could reveal, but their hands have been tied in the interests of government secrecy. As I mentioned a little while ago, I asked the Trussell Trust for their views on how foodbanks are going to remain functional in the event of No Deal, but I just got a nebulous Grin reply that they couldn't say as the situation was too fluid to make any specific announcements. Well, derr.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/12/2018 16:34

Theresa May’s Allies Are Pushing For A Second Referendum To Crush A Brexiteer “Suicide Squad”

The PM comes home from Brussels to find hardcore Brexiteers threatening to bring down her government, cabinet ministers being urged to oust her, and members of her top team preparing for a “people’s vote”.

www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/theresa-mays-allies-second-referendum-brexiteer-suicide

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 16:34

I can't work out whether this awful fear of foreboding is just the same as I've been feeling for the past 3 years, or whether I'm feeling even worse about it now.

Didn't Douglas Adams write something very similar in Hitchikers ? I think it's just life.

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 16:35

The PM comes home from Brussels

The parallels with the end days of Thatcher are mounting up ...

Hazardswan · 14/12/2018 16:41

loletta JRM has publically stated a border not sure about the others. I think some still assume Ireland is under UK rule and they don't quite get its a separate country... one conservative MP thought Brits could just apply for an Irish passport like someone born there. Obviously we can't and obviously it's a seperate country but like I said conservatives (and some labour to be fair) seem to think otherwise.

Great name btw!

Hasenstein · 14/12/2018 16:41

Grinchly

"15 or so store cupboard items to donate to the food bank"

Always a good idea to check with your foodbank to see what they really need. Ours has baked beans and soups coming out of its ears, but is very short on nappies, personal hygiene products, pants, socks etc. (Lidl's centre aisle can be your friend here!).

On another tack, I was at a Refugee Day Centre earlier this week and they had the same "needed products" issues. One excellent idea they did have was for a supplies pack for pregnant women close to the birth date, including everything they might need for the first few days after birth (not my area of expertise, but it seemed to be a well thought out selection).

Right, back to the thread to keep my sense of foreboding up to peak levels. What would I do without you all?

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 16:43

DW and I have sometimes put the "F" from a BOGOF offer into the collections at Sainsburys.

Grinchly · 14/12/2018 16:44

hasenstein There was a very helpful list attached to the donation bin. I bought items from said list.

Hazardswan · 14/12/2018 16:44

I think it's just life

Oh that's worse. There's a distinct foreboding whenever there's a conservative gov for me...which intensified post ref.

Mrsr8 · 14/12/2018 16:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EtVoilaBrexit · 14/12/2018 16:44

Okay, putting this out here now. Because it'll blow a massive hole in #PeoplesVote if it doesn't come out till later. Blair & Mandelson & Rudd - all involved with #PeoplesVote - are all compromised by their relationships with Deripaska, a central figure in Mueller's investigation

Is there ANYTHING in this brexit shit that isn’t manipulated by outside forces? Except TM maybe. She seems to be able to create mayhem just in her own....

I think PV is a crap idea. Too easy to manipulate people votes until we have put something in place to reduce foreign interference.
Besides, if we were going to war, I would expect the Parliament to debate about it, look at all alternatives etc.. and then make a decision. I would never expect the country to go to ar wo going though Parliament first and for Parliament to take the decision (that’s why the uk has a PARLIEMENTARY democracy).
Why in earth are we going back to ‘the people’ again and again?

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 16:44

Just reading about Theresa May "securing" something from the EU and remembered a wonderful USism that translates quite well into proper English Grin

That and £2.00 get's you a lottery ticket.

(Borrowed from something a friend once said about "that and a dollar gets you a subway ticket") ...

Mrsr8 · 14/12/2018 16:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lonelyplanetmum · 14/12/2018 16:47

I know it's the Mirror but apparently 30-60 blokes want Brexit now.

I'd 've thought the GJ were a bit er EU know er foreign myself.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-westminster-bridge-blocked-pro-13733051?utmsource=facebook.com&utmmmedium=social&utmcampaign=mirrorrmain

lonelyplanetmum · 14/12/2018 16:48

Mrsr8 UHT milk and juice- I'm on it!

Grinchly · 14/12/2018 16:49

mrsr8. Hurrah! Only missed two items- the u h t . GrinWill remember next time. Is pet food acceptable?

Grinchly · 14/12/2018 16:53

mrsr8 Great news re the collection- that's amazing! And brilliant re the Board!

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 17:00

I think PV is a crap idea.

Well, two wrongs don't make a right.

The best thing - for Brexit, for the UK, for the EU, for the US, and for the rest of the world would be if the 650 people who were trusted to do a job actually did that fucking job. I write that aware that there are some who are doing their job to the best of the present situation.

All a second referendum would do is show that the UK parliament is not the seat of power in the UK - nor ever was. Which is a dangerous message to allow to propagate.

If you want to throw external influences into the mix, maybe Brexit is what war looks like, 21st century style. The UK isn't being marginalised, or diminished by any other agency that it's own. To be honest, this would be how I imagined China would fight a war.

Meanwhile, if the US is being diminished, again, it's by it's own hand.

So now we've established that PV is probably the worst way forwards, I suggest we all put a good wedge on it happening. I refer regular readers to my "flowing downhill" theory which predicted Mays surviving the confidence vote. Which I am interested to note clearly wasn't overseen by grown-ups (such as the Electoral Commission) if there's talk of ferreting out peoples individual votes.

1tisILeClerc · 14/12/2018 17:01

{Also did anyone see the pro brexit march with yellow jackets as inspired by FRANCE? Did anyone tell them France is in the EU?}

The 'yellow jackets are a multi faceted issue. The grass roots was and is rural people objecting to the cost of fuel and France is big and getting to the shops costs a lot. These are mostly the 'average' person, collecting kids from school, shopping etc and is a 'passive' protest but managed to get around 200,000 supporters across France. The police 'authorised' many of the blockades and I think were usually in attendance. Apart from a couple of fatal accidents which is a true tragedy most were peaceful. The first was a woman reversing in a panic knocked down and killed a lady protestor who was too close.
The protest was heightened and taken to Paris and other cities but a 'new' element have joined in. The originals were a 'family affair' with children and adults of all ages. The ones in Paris etc arrived with weapons and petrol bombs.
There is also the added confusion that like at my local supermarket there were more yellow vests, but they are workmen redoing the supermarket entrance road and building a new carpark.

bellinisurge · 14/12/2018 17:02

A PV would almost inevitably have No Deal as an option. Some people are stupid and/or stubborn enough to go for it.
We want No Deal removed as a possibility as soon as possible.

lonelyplanetmum · 14/12/2018 17:06

Completely not following the train of the thought in the thread but I actually did some work today and as a sidetrack came across this.

Not relevant if the WA doesn't happen of course...

But I thought it was of interest the following concerns have been identified as especially having an impact on women:

"Following the publication of the Withdrawal Agreement, it is clear that women are still missing from the Government’s agenda ... Whilst the Agreement does reference some directives on women’s rights in the appendix, there is no reference to women in the main body of the text. This briefing seeks to reaffirm and set out our primary areas of concern and the questions that remain for women:

  1. What is the Government doing to ensure our rights as set out in equality, employment and human rights legislation are protected?
  2. How will the UK replicate violence against women and girls ( V A WG) protections and sustain funding currently provided by the EU?
  3. What measures will the Government be taking to ensure we are keeping pace with the EU to maintain gender equality?
  4. How will the Government ensure the EU Settlement Scheme works for vulnerable women and girls and what exemptions will be made for them?
  5. How will the Government ensure that the economic impact of Brexit does not have serious implications for women?
  6. What is the Government doing to ensure that women are represented at every level of the Brexit negotiation and transition process?

www.edf.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/FaceHerFuture-Briefing_Questions-that-remain-for-women.pdf