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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Grand Old Duke of Brexit, he had 10,000 men ..

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 09:44

May has marched us up, down and round and round. And still we are standing exactly where we began with no clue and no direction of where to go.

She may have survived a leadership challenge but it has resolved precisely nothing. And whilst many here are relieved because they feared an ERG proxy PM and the consequences and chaos of yet more lost time, May herself is a road block to any sort of resolution. Her inflexible approach and seeming lack of ideas are not helping matters.

May's rhetoric is that she will pursue a no deal v her deal strategy in extreme brinkmanship. Her efforts to reopen a negotiation that the UK had already agreed to have fallen flat with rising irritation for the EU. Indeed the EU seem to be toughing language (though it must be noted their position has remained exactly the same since the beginning)

The backstop is their red line, because its in essence the GFA.

May's promises to the DUP and to her own party were always unachievable; she should never have made them. She only did so to save her own neck, but in doing so, she makes it harder to force her deal though.

The all important vote it seems has been postponed until after Christmas. The deadline is 21st Jan. If there is no resolution the government have to make a statement in 5 days. Its still impossible to see it passing.

The Grieve III motion which was supposed to neutralise the threat of no deal has been rendered all but useless by the delay. Whether MPs realise this is another matter though. It could lead to a false sense of safety and not taking the prospect of no deal seriously.

Both May's actions and strategy and the false hope of Grieve III / revocation also weaken the prospect of alternative solutions to the WA, such as a Norway Plus or a People's Vote.

No deal preparations in the meantime have been stepped up.

May has promised that she will not revoke A50. The ERG clearly don't necessarily believe that or they wouldn't have launched their leadership challenge.

Would she though? Was it strategy or a slip when she said it was a choice between no deal, her deal or no brexit? And is this statement helpful or an additional problem in itself given subsequent developments?

I find it hard to forget her pig headed stubbornness and how she has persued court cases for no other reason other than to make a point, or for what looks like pure spite. I think she would no deal and take the fall out over revocation out of duty to her party and what she sees as her duty to the country to 'respect the vote'. The consequences be damned.

However the ever sceptical James Patrick does think she would revoke at the last minute because of her duty to the country and what no deal would do to the country. And she has proved she is for turning under extreme pressure.

The hard core of the ERG are also not done. They are avowed to do anything to stop a deal. Labour’s strategy seems to be tied to how serious the ERG and the DUP are with this. They are holding out for the prospect of a non-binding no confidence vote. Which is meaningless. Unless they have the numbers to challenge the Fixed Term Act then their current strategy is utterly pointless and just for the viewing consumption of those who don't understand how pointless this is. It's hard to see Labour’s real strategy as supporting anything but no deal in practice. Although the one ray of hope is that they did support Grieve III. They do need to wake up to the reality of the threat though.

Ultimately I fear it will come down to how MPs make this judgement call. Do they share my fears or do they share James Patrick's position.

And that is nothing but a gamble.

I fear Brexit will ultimately be decided on a gamble of What Would May Do. There isn't any other realistic prospect presenting itself at this stage.

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BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 11:18

Thanks, red 💐

May winning the party Confidence vote meant that we aren't heading to certain doom of No Deal with the ERG

However, No Deal stays the default unless she, or the HoC, blinks before 29 March and actually chooses another option.

I used to think a PV was very very unlikely, but I give it about a 30% chance of happening now,
simply because the politcicians are stuck
and the comparative adults among them are too chicken to take actual decisions themselves.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 11:19

If there is No Deal, I expect that the food supplies will be normal for the first few days,
but that after this is when the prepping stocks would start to come in handy.

Current stocks of meds by pharmaceutical firms, chemists, NHS etc should last at least 2 weeks afaik, some much longer.
However, that's not much consolation if yours is one of those that run out

So get as much on your next prescriptions as you can - for those meds that can actually be stored for a few months; not all can be.

We already know that most elements of govt prepping were started too late and won't be ready for 30 March

There are several measures that could be done to mitigate the effects of No Deal on essential supplies,
but I have no faith that this govt fully understands the implications and will get its arse in gear.

I also fear that for political reasons - not wanting to admit the hole we're in - the govt are not ordering / letting the civil service & military prep fully.

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 11:20

pmk

Cherrypi · 14/12/2018 11:20

Interest rates are going to rise aren’t they? There was a thread on Twitter that risk analysts were modelling a rise to 5% and anticipating negative equity being a problem again in some areas.

IsobelKarev · 14/12/2018 11:20

they couldn't continue to abide by the GFA given that "Brexit means Brexit"

This is what I don't understand. If the backstop is needed to protect the GFA, surely a no deal Brexit also breaks the GFA and has massive economic consequences. And if the terms of the backstop are just like any other international treaty then why not just vote for the damn WA?

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 11:23

The House of Commons Library
discusses the implications of recent events and what can legally / constituionally happen next

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit/the-eu/the-meaningful-vote-deferred-what-now/

Peregrina · 14/12/2018 11:26

However, No Deal stays the default unless she, or the HoC, blinks before 29 March and actually chooses another option.

But remember McMillan and 'Events, dear boy, events'. The flu could strike the Government down, or a massive snow storm could stop the country running, or, or, or.... something I haven't thought of could come along and put a spanner in the works, so that we crash out by accident.

they couldn't continue to abide by the GFA given that "Brexit means Brexit"

Some of the Tories want to destroy the GFA - Gove was known to be one. The current NI Secretary, Bradley, is probably too ignorant to realise what is at stake.

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 11:27

Ultimately, no deal will simply result in a slew of unanticipated event, issues and complications - chaos in shot. It will test the resilience of organisations, and we will discover - to our surprise - that having no surplus capacity; no slack; means that everything is built on sand.

Any company that prides itself on being "100% efficient" is going to discover how even 1% of inefficiency would be desirable.

My last employer used to make a point of "low cost IT" - which was fine. But directors got very upset when there was no cutting-edge gee-whizzery going on - which is a "cost". You pays your money, you takes your choice.

bellinisurge · 14/12/2018 11:28

@IsobelKarev , couldn't agree more. No Deal Brexit messes with GFA which, apart from being shit in itself, tells the world we don't keep our promises. Hardly a great basis for negotiation of trade deals. Who would believe us?

DGRossetti · 14/12/2018 11:28

The pound tanking does rather solve one problem for any IndyRef 2 Grin

borntobequiet · 14/12/2018 11:30

NYT editorial:
www.nytimes.com/2018/12/13/opinion/editorials/theresa-may-britain-no-confidence-brexit.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
So the three fundamental options have not substantially changed: a negotiated deal, no deal, no Brexit. And for all of Britain’s grand history, Europe will not give it free cake or Mars Bars.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 11:30

Isobel The HoC basically wants the freedom to unilaterally break the backstop in the WA,
i.e. to make the backstop meaningless.

They want the benefits of transition and negotiating a future deal, but also the freedom to walk away and break the backstop.

Even those who aren't really Leavers don't want to be tied to the responsibilities the UK Labour govt signed up to in the GFA.
Some Tories and all the DUP bitterly opposed the GFA, anyway and would love to smash it.

The EU - which is supporting their member country Ireland - won't agree to the backstop being weakened in any way.

1tisILeClerc · 14/12/2018 11:32

I suppose in the short term (weeks) in a crash out scenario the NI border is sort of academic in that trade across it will theoretically stop.
Cue massive racketeering/smuggling. With the pandemonium elsewhere this would probably be a minor issue.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 14/12/2018 11:32

I have also emailed my Labour MP after opening this thread today. I pointed out that as the representative of a Scottish Remainer constituency, she has a duty to push Remain with the Labour leadership. However, I doubt it will make any difference - and I doubt that Jeremy Corbyn even knows her name.

I have a horrible feeling that we'll get another Beast From the East in March, and that will mean that a lot of Remain MPs who are not concentrated in the South of England will be unable to travel for the crucial vote. And we know we can't trust the pairing system any more...

1tisILeClerc · 14/12/2018 11:36

{The EU - which is supporting their member country Ireland - won't agree to the backstop being weakened in any way.}
Any idea what the EU position would be on this if No deal happens?
I feel I should know, but then again why would I?

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 11:38

That's something which is overlooked, imo:

Many Tories regard the GFA as something Labour signed & committed the country to, 20 years ago,
but which they would not have signed under those terms.

At the time, the Tories were still reeling and shattered by their huge defeat in 1997,
so the objectors - e.g. Tebbit - were unable to mount effective resistance then

Also, the party still had mostly adults in it who wouldn't allow the batshit to determine party policy.

Now a new generation of Tories have supplanted them, with little sense of responsibility
and little memory of the Troubles, also appalling ignorance

e.g. the current NI Secretary of State, who arrived in a shocking state of ignorance about NI for any reasonably educated Brit, never mind an MP

1tisILeClerc · 14/12/2018 11:38

{and that will mean that a lot of Remain MPs who are not concentrated in the South of England will be unable to travel for the crucial vote.}
Lock them in the HoC or wherever for a week beforehand, like they do when electing popes.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 11:41

I also fear that for political reasons - not wanting to admit the hole we're in - the govt are not ordering / letting the civil service & military prep fully.

I agree with this.

I also KNOW that none political organisations are with holding information and stuff they know because its deemed to be too political. This is crazy given that it's in the public interest to know this information.

We have friends who have tied hands sitting on this information who are unable to do anything with it, include leak it.

And this is in addition to what we know about NDAs on certain sections of the economy.

Information is being ACTIVELY suppressed for political reasons because its too politically sensitive to state what observations have been made and professional conducted research.

Go figure.

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NameChanger22 · 14/12/2018 11:47

I think we are headed for a no deal. It's what a lot of them want, despite their lies to the contrary. I don't believe a word anyone says anymore. I don't even believe TM is a remainer, she hates immigrants and seems hell-bent on messing things up as much as possible.

It's all so they can blame our economic mess and deficit (remember that, it's not gone away) on the 'poor' people that voted for Brexit.

I was a very strong remainer. I knew their intentions right from the start. There is an evil bunch of manipulators running our country right now.

RedToothBrush · 14/12/2018 11:48

Sam Coates Times @samcoatestimes
Functioning (or otherwise) of government update:

The cabinet office is today getting in touch with agencies to tell them that “transparency day” has been postponed

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Mrsr8 · 14/12/2018 11:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/12/2018 11:50

LeClerc If the UK becomes a 3rd country, without any deal, then WTO rules require the EU - and the UK - to treat each other like any other 3rd country.

There could be an emergency waiver for several weeks to avoid this for NI, on the basis of NI being such a special case -
during which time the EU is likely to refuse any helpful minideals for the UK,
in order to pressure the govt to come to its senses and sign an emergency deal with backstop.

However, unless the UK caves in, eventually the WTO rules would have to be applied.

The UK could theoretically throw all its borders wide open to all goods without any checks, as some Brexiters propose.
Hello contaminated Chinese baby formula.
We'd be the world's dumping ground for dodgy goods of all kind: food, toys, electrical goods ...

However, the EU obviously won't do the same,
so the RoI would have to impose checks on imports from NI, as discretely and as far away from the border as possible.

The main tactic will probably be to "encourage" business to ban all goods with any mainland GB content, to reduce the number of checks.

FestiveForestieraNoel · 14/12/2018 11:50

Red thanks. I can't believe it's got to this stage

IrenetheQuaint · 14/12/2018 11:52

Civil service no deal preparation is ramping up massively as of now. There's an article in the Guardian today (confirmed by civil service friends).

1tisILeClerc · 14/12/2018 11:58

Thanks BCF.
That was pretty much how I was thinking but wondered if there had been a specific statement anywhere. I presume Mr Barnier has that in his other back pocket. The possibility for chaos is immense.