Budget supporting Middle England

[Bearbehind]

On what planet is is right that a couple earning £100k plus are over £1,000 better off when a couple earning £25k between them are £150 better off after the budget.

And the latter probably voted Leave in order to shake up the establishment.

Well, as i said, we'll have to disagree on that.

But you’ve admitted they don’t oppose the Tories and given justifications why it is the case - you can’t then say that you disagree that they don’t oppose.

Even if you think they are ‘picking their battles’ you haven’t said which battles they are.

Because if not Brexit or protecting low tax payers what else?

No i haven't your putting words in my mouth, of course Labour oppose the Tories.
i think you are bored! and we need to move on, its getting tiresome.

BUT as i said, if Labour support May deal then i will capitulate and agree your right and i was wrong.

Have you seen the recent 'Poll that shows that in a GE held before Brexit, if Labour continue to support Brexit, they'll drop to 19% Cons on 28% and LibDems on 17% ?
If they oppose brexit, they'll be on par with the Tories, LD below 10%.

I wonder whether Lab continued support for Brexit will haunt them beyond brexit?

Except this whole discussion is about the fact they don’t actually oppose the Tories when it comes down to it.

The Tory Remainers are not much better. They talk, but when it comes down to it, dutifully troop through the Government lobby. They could easily bring the Governement down if they rebelled, but the bottom line appears to be that preserving the Tory party is more important than considering the good of the country.

BUT as i said, if Labour support May deal then i will capitulate and agree your right and i was wrong.

Surely that depends on the deal doesn’t it?

Agreed peregrina which is why I think this whole situation is a farce and why I cannot understand why people defend the Labour Party and make out it’s the Tories who are the root of all evil when they are all as bad as each other.

But you can't get away from the fact that the Tories have brought down two PMs at least fighting over our being in the EU. Some say three and include Thatcher - I don't, primarily the Poll tax did for her.

I can't recall Labour having any such battles, or not since Harold Wilson's day, and as I have already observed, he was a whole lot smarter/cunning than Cameron. Wilson packed up not long after but it was subsequently found that he was getting dementia, so he can't be claimed as a Eurosceptic scalp.

Meanwhile, Redwood and Grease-Mogg are busily putting their money into the Union which they supposedly abhor. One day I would like to see them tried for treason.

I cannot understand why people defend the Labour Party and make out it’s the Tories who are the root of all evil when they are all as bad as each other

No they are not.
You ve supported a party that has cut public services to the bone, libraries, roads, adult and child social care, council funding, cut DLA/PIP, (how many suicides that has has resulted in?) reduced housing stock, lined the pockets of private landlords, cut higher rate tax, cut IHT, cut corp tax and now UK subject to a UN investigation on poverty.
All so the most well off can continue to get even richer.

You ve a nerve to say they are as bad as each other!

Cameron and the Tories are solely responsible for Brexit, they (supported by your good self) gave us a referendum, they then invoked art50......they are in power and only they can stop it.

May has a majority, only she can halt brexit.

Labour can shout and chant all they like.

As for May's deal, any deal will not give us what we've got now, so of course Labour should 100% vote against it.

As for May's deal, any deal will not give us what we've got now, so of course Labour should 100% vote against it.

And what good will that do? They’ve missed the boat on that already.

They should have challenged the amendments earlier on so that voting against a deal actually left us with some options.

Kicking up a fuss at the last minute when it’s too late to find a better option is pointless.

All so the most well off can continue to get even richer

And Labour have just condoned them doing more of the same.

The better option is to stay in the EU, thats not on the table never has been, the amendments are tinkering and imho pointless.

Vote down the deal and May will be left with choice a: take the uk down a no-deal option, but thats unacceptable to her party as it would destroy the tories rep as a credible government.
b: 2nd referendum, if EU agree to put on hold art50.

There are no other options, can't renegotiate and can't call a GE as that means no-deal.

well, there is, revoke art50 but she wont do that.

a: take the uk down a no-deal option, but thats unacceptable to her party as it would destroy the tories rep as a credible government.

Not sure about that. Don't underestimate the Tories ability to blame someone else.

jas I think you are kidding yourself if you think Labour aren’t going to support whatever cobbled together deal is on offer.

Following your logic of Labour not opposing the budget because they’d get the blame for making the poor poorer, then the natural conclusion is Labour won’t vote against whatever is offered as it would force ‘no deal’

However you’ve already said you’d admit you were wrong should that happen so I guess it’s just ‘wait and see’ now.

But it wouldn't force a no-deal, the Tories, whatever they ve said about a no-deal is better than a bad deal, will not take the country down this route.
It would be catastrophic and as the party in Government they would get the blame, they'd be an instant collapse of Government and a GE, in which they would be destroyed and they know this, it would be the 3 day week all over again.

So, they'd have to go down other paths, a 2nd referendum would be an ideal get out for all concerned.

It would force ‘no deal’ because it would be effectively what the vote was - this deal or no deal.

I’m astounded that, after all your moaning about the Tories, you really think Labour pushing them into a no deal situation is going to end well.

There’s plenty of Tories who would be perfectly happy with no deal and the rest would blame Labour for pushing us to that point.

Labour have missed their opportunity to challenge and oppose this, they are now going to accept whatever scraps we are offered.

There’s no time for a second referendum after a vote on the deal.

Yes there is, the EU will grant an extension to art50, they want the UK to stay in, the UK could be forced into another vote.

imho May wont bring a deal to Parliament unless she is certain of getting it through, its not only Labour that can defeat her.

There is already talk of Raab resigning...Politics today BBC.

Who said "a week is along time in politics" anything could and no doubt will happen.

Yes there is, the EU will grant an extension to art50, they want the UK to stay in

Do they ? I suspect they all agree with the person who said that the UK leaving was a pity, but to allow the UK to stay would be a catastrophe.

Also the UK government stance is unequivocal. The UK parliament has no power to rescind or reverse A50.

(Note to pedants: you can be unequivocal and wrong ).

jas we’re clearly not going to agree here and time will tell who is right.

In the mean time I won’t be pinning my hopes on Labour voting against any deal.

Plus, I’m not at all convinced we’d get an extension to A50. We’ve pissed around for this long and still can’t even agree ourselves what we want. I’m sure at least some of the EU27 would veto any extension application on the grounds they have prepared for no deal and they know we haven’t.

The UK has 'lit the blue touch paper' and now needs to decide whether it is going to stand very close to the rocket, or step back and make suitable 'post rocket' plans.

The Tories and May aren't the UK, within a GE they'll be history, as for that matter will be JC and Juncker/Merkel etc

There is firm public support to remain in the EU and for a 2nd vote, the demographics are with us, so that will grow, esp as the implications start to dawn, today Brittany Ferries have sounded warnings on bookings down, you can bet your life this is mirrored with other operators too.

There is (still) all to play for and we need to take a leaf out of the Farage ERG cook book and don't be so fuckin negative.

The Tories and May aren't the UK

Well neither is Labour and Corbyn.

The Tories and May aren't the UK, within a GE they'll be history, as for that matter will be JC and Juncker/Merkel etc

Eh? That whole sentence is delusional because it has no basis in reality.

Certainly not a reality that’s going to occur before March.

It's very hard to see how another Referendum could be held in time. The EU would need to be asked to pause the operation of A50. We would then have to draw up much stricter rules governing the new Referendum. No false advertising, no giving money to the DUP to spend it in London. Money give to the DUP would have to be spent only in NI. Etc. etc. It could be done. Would it shut up the ERG though?

May will be history soon - look how quickly Cameron has been forgotten. That may be because he didn't achieve much because Blair and Major haven't been forgotten in the same way. Thatcher and Blair were both exceptions - most PMs last about 4-5 years, and age considerably in office.

Really Bear? nothings stays the same in Politics.

I intend to fight to remain in the EU and should we leave (so long as the Tories don't get back in) i'll fight to rejoin... you can go back to voting for the Tories.