Budget supporting Middle England

[Bearbehind]

On what planet is is right that a couple earning £100k plus are over £1,000 better off when a couple earning £25k between them are £150 better off after the budget.

And the latter probably voted Leave in order to shake up the establishment.

Seriously jas how do you see all that happening before March?

I’m the firs5 to wish Br it wasn’t happening but you have to be realistic about the options now.

Well, i 'm watching Ch4s "Brexit, what the nation really thinks...". and Carolyn Lucas is eating Nigel Farage alive, as for that matter Gardner and tory who i can't remember.

So far some quite telling poll results.

The over ridden concern for a politician is to be voted back in and their legacy.

jas if the rumours about TM agreeing to staying in CU are true, would you still want Labour to vote against that?

Yes, they must vote against this type of deal.

Why though?

Staying in SM / CU (and calling it something else to appease Leavers) whilst saying we’ve left the EU is the best we can hope for?

What are you expecting any better deal to look like?

@Bear

Its a poor deal and leaves us out of the EU for decades to come.

TBH @Bear, considering your long standing and well argued views on staying in the EU, you are displaying a very defeatist attitude.

Vote this down and May is forced to seek a postponement of art50, a GE or a 2nd vote.

The nations views on leaving the EU are changing, to just role over and take whatever deal suits the Tory party is madness, because it is not and never will be a deal that is best for the UK.

I am not sure that May has enough support from the blUKIP wing of her party. It would need the moderate Tories to hold their nerve to vote against the deal, which is something they have difficulty with.

There would also need to be no abstentions or rebellion in Labour, which there will be.

The Gov itself has pointed out what no-deal means, so May cannot take us down this route, if she does, just like in the 70s, the ensuing economic turmoil will mean a GE, in which the Tories will be destroyed.
She wont be able to blame Labour, as the Tories are the governing party and any rejection of this deal will require her own MPs (and/or DUP allies) to vote against too.

The only logical out come of voting down this rumoured Turkey style CU deal is either a GE or a 2nd vote, also remember its going to be time limited, which means business have further long term uncertainty.

I am not so confident that the Tories will be destroyed, and they will blame Labour come what may.

Of course, they'd blame my cat, sun spots and lunar activity too but the bottom line is they are in power, they cannot escape responsibility.

....grid lock at all channel ports, med and food shortages, limited flights, millions of holiday travel plans in turmoil, £ and stock market in free fall, job loses, price rises in food and fuel... all of this they ve predicted in their impact papers.
Whoever they say is to blame will be lost in the realities on the ground.

Labour have never really recovered from being blamed for the chaos in the 70s and so May will seek another path.

{Turkey style CU deal}
Such an apt description, especially in the coming season!

In some ways the fate of the UK is already written, we just don't know what it is. Meaning a significant chunk of manufacturing and other business has already started voting with it's feet and it is only the NDAs that stop 'us' seeing how many are on the starting blocks ready to leave on 29 March. There is nothing to replace it.
There will have to be some really radical thinking and money spending to 'replace' and IMPROVE on the manufacturing and services that are going. To be a great trading nation (again), trading WHAT exactly? It will have to be high value and using minimal resources and even this will be a struggle because countries like Switzerland who traditionally had similar constraints have got there first. The UK does not have sufficient resources to launch into major 'manufacturing' mode. You can't announce you are going to produce a banquet and achieve it if you go into the kitchen and find a tin of baked beans and some slightly elderly bread as the only ingredients.

Labour have never really recovered from being blamed for the chaos in the 70s and so May will seek another path.

But you prove my point there jasjas. Some of the chaos of the 70s happened during the Tory Government - the first miners strike leading to the three day week, and a postal workers strike which seems to have been forgotten about now.

The miner's strike led to Ted Heath calling a GE, with the slogan 'Who Governs' with the answer from the electorate being 'not you, mate'.

Ask the average person though, and they will blame Labour.

I should add that the strikes which were happening under Jim "Crisis, What Crisis?" Callaghan, weren't national strikes to my knowledge. Stuff about bodies being unburied and rubbish not collected wasn't happening round my way.

By far the biggest problem then and now is lack of critical thinking.
It is all very well trade unions 'fighting' to keep jobs and plants open but if that industry is declining worldwide, either long or short term, then they are not really helping the long term situation.
Coal and steel production in the '70s, UK resources were starting to dwindle which would require either massive investment and ingenuity to use what we had, or accept that (IIRC) Poland which had better quality coal that was easier to extract would (sadly for the UK workforce) take over. The grown up plan would have been to recognise the problem and find a way to harness the workforce BEFORE things collapsed, which has been so damaging to those communities.

considering your long standing and well argued views on staying in the EU, you are displaying a very defeatist attitude

I see it as realistic rather than defeatist.

I don’t think it’s helpful to be clinging onto the idea that Labour are going to vote any deal down, we’ll have another referendum and end up remaining on exactly the terms we have now.

The best we can hope for is BINO.

If that gets voted down I think we’ll end up with no deal.

She wont be able to blame Labour

Of course she will.

As I said before, following your logic that Labour supported the budget so they didn’t get the blame for not giving low earners additional income, this is exactly the same situation only on a much bigger scale.

If Labour don’t support a BINO deal they will be blamed for No deal for all eternity.

@Bear she can blame whoever she likes, it won't stick, the public mood is changing toward Brexit.

May isn't offering BINO, she is attempting to get through Parliament a WA only (loosely based on a Turkey style agreement) which will lead to a transition period, only then will we know our future trade relationship and if it is a Bino.

Don't really see why continuing to push for a 2nd vote is somehow "not helpful"

This is the only remaining chance to halt Brexit, if you really care about the country, you'll support Labour should they choose to vote down her deal (if indeed she even gets one)

This is the only remaining chance to halt Brexit, if you really care about the country, you'll support Labour should they choose to vote down her deal

There are many people who won't and can't support Labour with Corbyn in charge, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Don't really see why continuing to push for a 2nd vote is somehow "not helpful"

It’s not helpful because it’s not the most likely outcome of Labour voting down a deal.

The most likely outcome of that is no deal.

I'm just glad I live in Scotland and can vote for a party that truly supports Remain/the EU and which is left wing.

I truly don't know what I'd do if I still lived in England . When I did, many many years ago - and when I was still a Labour supporter - I would choose to vote tactically, Labour if the constituency I was in had a chance of the Labour candidate winning, Liberal/LibDem/Social Democrat if they didn't (I moved around a bit).

If I were an English voter, I'm not sure I'd be able to forgive the Labour Party for promulgating the claim that "80% voted for parties that supported Brexit". Any manifesto would have to be very clear that they now supported as a minimum EEA/EFTA membership.

Their so-called 6 Tests are yet another more unicorns and cake-ism if they don't explicitly support CU and SM membership, as both are required in order for those 6 tests to be passed