Budget supporting Middle England

[Bearbehind]

On what planet is is right that a couple earning £100k plus are over £1,000 better off when a couple earning £25k between them are £150 better off after the budget.

And the latter probably voted Leave in order to shake up the establishment.

My point was that the 'thinking' UK voters need to see a credible plan, or possibly two plans, to show what we are aiming for in the near and more distant future. So far no politicians have managed to present any plan, or at least not one that the voters could reasonably vote for.
Crashing out with no plan (the ERG plan) is only half revealed, promises of sovereignty and unicorns, but unless you dig down into some of the details you will not see that it relies on 90% of the country being 'wasted' as the short term 'disaster capital' element makes the initial 'up' hit for the ERG and then there will be a loose scrabbling about trying to make the UK profitable and 'good' again for the 90%, in a halfhearted way. Of course Labour should be proposing a plan to get out of the mess, that is their job, not just to sit on the sidelines and say no to everything. If your friend had an accident, would you just sit and say it would have been good to have had a bandage, or would you find something suitable and sort them out?

@Mother

Sorry, the question was directed to @Bear ie evidence for a deal in which we stay in the SM and CU, the legendary BINO ! it is not possible to stay in and have full access to both yet leave the EU

But to answer your point, if Labour support the final and damaging deal, they'll be forever blamed and rightly so.

If Labour don't support a deal and we end up withNo Deal because of it, the consequences will also be on them. I suspect that is what Corbyn and Macdonald want to do - create chaos.

@1tisILeClerc

Poor analogy, the Tories are not Labours friend and this is not an accident, this is deliberate & v damaging Gov policy
its sole aim to try and heal the divisions in the Tory party that have dogged them for decades, it has nothing to do with bettering the country in any shape or form.

@bellinisurge

I really do not see that Labour are responsible in any shape or form.

They ve consistently proposed a SM and CU agreement with the EU, the Tories have equally opposed this.

I just don't 'get' why so many in the UK are happy to sit on their hands and wait for the disaster to hit. There should be mass rallies every weekend. Those that are thinking are focusing on March 29th, but what are anyone's plans for March 30th and possibly beyond?
The equivalent of the Jarrow march.

{I really do not see that Labour are responsible in any shape or form.}
That can be taken a couple of ways. But rather than arguing the toss about what might have happened, the days of the Austin Allegro being the 'car for the future' where is the vision taking the UK forward?

@jasjas1973 please stop tagging me it’s @bearbehind you’re tussling with, not @Bear. I keep getting notification emails that I could do without.

Yes i agree, the vision should be to revoke art50 and then explain why... show some leadership!

I think if Labour do support her deal, then they'd have fallen hook line and sinker into the Tory trap.

Labour did the same by getting the Tories to support the Iraq war when they were in opposition, forever being able to say "well, you supported it too"
They didn't need Tory support (labour had a huge majority) but they had an eye on the future!

Hopefully, Labour will not make the same mistake, especially as the electorate are turning away from Brexit.

I suppose the longer this pantomime goes on the negative effects of Brexit in any form will gradually percolate into more heads so that if there were a last minute vote of some sort the consensus may swing decisively.
Maybe the EU should 'up the game' and declare that after their preparations are complete they don't want the UK to stay.
The derision thrown at Mr Barnier by 'readers' of the Express or was it Mail, for the suggestion that the UK could reapply if it does leave in March was totally disgusting.

evidence for a deal in which we stay in the SM and CU, the legendary BINO ! it is not possible to stay in and have full access to both yet leave the EU

Of course it’s possible - we just pay through the nose for it so it’s not preferential.

Bear - Paying in is only part of it, Full & Frictionless SM access, means we would need to adhere to ALL EU rules and regulations, the more access we want to the SM the closer our relationship to the EU has to be... ie the (EU) level playing field!

That would mean FoM, CAP and Fisheries etc

Being in the CU means no independent trade policy, so no FTA's negotiating or signing them.

Oh and subject to all ECJ rulings.

As i said, produce the evidence May is planing on putting this deal forward to the commons!

jas it’s the only option that solves the NI border issue. Pretty much full alignment is required if frictionless access is going to be achieved.

I’m not sure what is complicated about this - It’s that or no deal because there is no middle ground possible in practice.

FOM would just be rebadged because it’s dropped massively because no one wants to come here now.

To be honest jas you lost me when you said on the WM thread that you like Bercow!

I can’t get my head round that either! 😂

Bear i'm entitled to my opinion and he has a lot of support in the commons, try to think more independently, instead of just following the crowd.

Back on track... you are suggesting a deal that is membership of the EU, now i don't know where you ve been for the last 2.5 years but that is never ever ever ever going to be accepted by TM & the Tory party and begs the question "why are we leaving to become a vassal state of the EU?"

also, you ve still not produced any evidence May is about to put this sort of deal to Parliament, she isn't, wishful thinking.

i'm entitled to my opinion and he has a lot of support in the commons, try to think more independently, instead of just following the crowd.

Condenseding 101.

Just good and honest advice and you can't spell either.

Just good and honest advice and you can't spell either

I'm dyslexic.

jas you really are baffling me now - the ‘ evidence’ you require is simply that it’s the only ‘deal’ option.

Nothing else will work. Nothing else solves the border issue

It will be dressed up to appease Leavers but effectively staying in the EU ie all the rules and less benefits is the only option.

FTAs and lower FOM could have been achieved in the EU so we’ll just do what we shears could have and make out it’s only been possible by leaving the EU.

Otherwise it’s no deal.

A thread about middle England that massively misses one key point. Lower income leave voters. Once you take immigration out of the issue leave voters will tell you that the voted out due to lack of opportunities, globalisation, low pay etc. They are barking up the wrong tree blaming the EU but their concerns are real.

People who feel they have nothing to lose aren't going to give a toss about comfortable middle England worrying about the effects of Brexit. They'll care less for those who voted for the Tories and Austerity.

A soft Brexit saves the backsides of comfortable middle England who can largely ride out any economic storm. A soft Brexit also allows the same people to go on voting Tory as the backlash against the conservatives from their voting base is minimal. A soft Brexit, however means the slow demise of the UK economically and socially.

Its either in or out. No fudge. A pp mentioned the fact people should be marching every week against Brexit. They are right of course but it shows that alot of people are apathetic or still support Brexit. The Tories know this which allows they to "toy" around with various possibilities.

A soft Brexit suits the wealthy and is a double kick in the teeth for poorer leave voters because they get robbed of what they believe to be a "true" Brexit and they'll still have to endure more Tory governments implementing policies that continue to leave them behind. That is why Labour should not be backing the Tories deal.

I’m really surprised people are seeing a Labour vote down now as leading to potentially Remaining.

There really is no evidence that I can see that might happen.

Voting down any deal can only lead to ‘hard Brexit’

You might not like soft Brexit (I don’t, it’s pointless and puts us in a worse position than before) but I’d take it over no deal and I honestly don’t see remaining being an option.

{A soft Brexit, however means the slow demise of the UK economically and socially. }
If you look at the possible incoming revenue streams anything apart from Remain will have this effect.
Unless you have a 'tyrannical' government happy to reduce a significant number of the population to slave labour there is not much the UK can actively DO in terms of manufacturing/services that other countries aren't already doing. You have to forget the niceties of a blue passport and take a global, as in the whole world, view and try and slot a separatist UK in it. Hi Tec precision engineering, look to say Switzerland, Low tec sweatshops, Bangladesh, the UK will have to find a new niche and fight others to get into a position somewhere.
As part of the EU the likes of financial services and possibly above average manufacturing capability (using raw materials from overseas that we don't have) the UK made a good partner. Leaving, we have 'pissed it up a wall' (to coin an expression) and the way we have gone about it we have (seemingly deliberately) made it even harder for business.

TBH, at this stage I'm past caring. For 2 years evidence of the damage Brexit will cause has been widely available. The government has been botching negotiations. Today we learn that the Brexit secretary did not understand the importance of the Dover Calais route. The only people left supporting Brexit should be the ERG. Millions should be marching.
They aren't and I suspect the only way people will learn is hard brexit. Blaming the EU won't wash because the EU won't care (what good are "enemies" if they won't retaliate or aren't even listening to bluster?).Anyone with means (largely remainers) will have left the UK.

The only good coming out of the above would be the potential for a united Ireland and independent Scotland.