Budget supporting Middle England

[Bearbehind]

On what planet is is right that a couple earning £100k plus are over £1,000 better off when a couple earning £25k between them are £150 better off after the budget.

And the latter probably voted Leave in order to shake up the establishment.

I did always think spoiling a ballot paper was a stupid thing to do but when you are faced with the choices being completely unpalatable, what else can you do?

Funny that you are forced to serve on a jury as part of your obligations to be a good citizen (I'm sure there are many other thigns too) , but you aren't obliged to vote.

Of course the real reason is the moment you have a by election where the "winning" candidates claim they were the "popular choice" is shown to be a crock, you can legitimately question your governance.

Personally, I think we should go the other way, and insist on proper FPTP, where the winner has to win a majority of registered voters. That would give them a bombproof claim to be the voice of the majority. It would certainly require more moderate policies.

I find the anti Corbyn comments here quite depressing. Not because I have a burning desire for people here to support Corbyn but rather a failure to see the bigger picture.

Remainers quite rightly highlight sections of the press misrepresenting the EU but they do exactly the same thing with Corbyn and yet up thread we've got language like "unelectable" - straight out of a tabloid editorial. Corbyn's social democratic principles are sound and that is why Labour gained traction - against all the negative publicity in 2017. The country finally has an alternative to the neo-liberal consensus - an alternative to privitisation and all the other ills that the UK has taken for granted over the last 40 years. The NHS is safer under Corbyn's Labour than it is a Tory government (regardless of leader). I guess there is a grain of truth when leavers use the "class" argument wrt to Brexit. Neo liberalism is an irritation when you are middle class, it is an absolute killer when you are working class. The white collar worker will complain about higher season ticket prices but they'll take it on the chin. When the blue collar worker has their factory shut its game over.

I'm sorry but saying there is no alternative to the Tories or threatening to spoil you ballot IMO is not an acceptable argument. Under FPTP you realistically have 2 choices. Not voting Labour because you think they are hard left or unelectable guarantees the continued demise of the NHS, Universal credit, food banks etc. Its a shame Corbyn wasn't Labour leader in 2010 or 2015. Corbyn supporters aren't going to accept a "centrist" Labour leader when it is just more neo liberalism. They've seen it first hand. They won't turn a blind eye to military action when the oppose the current situation with Saudi.

Sadly Brexit has become the only game in town. Yes, I'm disappointed that Corbyn hasn't spoke out against Brexit but what good would it do? Public opinion on Brexit has not shifted a great deal. The Tories control the course of Brexit and won't allow a people's vote (which seems to mean endorsing the least worst deal).

If the disaster of Brexit means the Tories get booted out and replaced by a centrist Labour it simply means Labour get the blame for trying to fix the country during the barron years. Then the Tories get back in again and the cycle continues. Theres no indication that the electorate has particularly long memories - except of course when the right wing press tell them that Labour caused the economic collapse in 2008.

If I am right in my thinking then the best thing would be for the UK to break up - I don't see why Scotland and NI should be dragged down in all of this. That would then mean a permanent Tory led England. Leavers and remainers are currently fiddling whilst Rome burns. That's not just Brexit but on other issues such as poverty, the NHS etc.

I'm disappointed that Corbyn hasn't spoke out against Brexit but what good would it do?

And I find that truly depressing.

Corbyn is unelectable.

That’s not my opinion based on MSM, it’s based on his words and actions.

The Labour Party should be miles ahead in the polls and they’re not.

And the blame for that lies firmly at Corbyns feet.

The Labour Party should be miles ahead in the polls and they’re not.

Have you learnt nothing from the EU referendum? Remain should have won a landslide based simply on the fact the majority of people don't want to be poorer. Ask yourself why this happened. Why people voted leave.

Now apply the same logic to the polls. Why would May who claims to be "strong and stable" at the same time as suffering cabinet resignations and being propped up by the DUP still be ahead in the polls? Note - the polls weren't particularly accurate in 2016 or 2017 anyway.

What people are told or even believe is not always true. "Corbyn is unelectable" is no different from "Turkey is joining the EU". They are out of the same playbook.

What people are told or even believe is not always true. "Corbyn is unelectable" is no different from "Turkey is joining the EU". They are out of the same playbook

No they are not.

Turkey joining the EU can be dispelled by facts.

What facts can you offer to prove Corbyn is not unelectable.

He does not do the very thing he is tasked with doing, ie providing opposition.

People don’t trust him to deliver on his party’s manifesto given he can’t even adequately oppose the Tories.

The fact that TM is still ahead in the polls despite the points you’ve made is evidence of just how unelectable Corbyns Labour is.

How have facts helped change people’s opinion on Brexit? Given all the leave slogans have been debunked why do people still support Brexit?

People’s positions have become entrenched. If you believe that the UK will be better off after Brexit then as we’ve seen on these threads no amount of economic evidence to the contrary will dissuade you. Party politics works the same way.

ghost I’m desperately looking for an alternative to the Tories but arguing that Labour are an improvement despite their leader isn’t going to do it for me.

I’m not talking about economic evidence of what a Brexit will do to the economy - that’s indisputable.

Your arguments aren’t defending a Corbyn, rather aologising for him. And that’s no future.

We’ve seen how much damage a party leader can cause with TM’s ‘red lines’ which had the backing of very few.

Electing another party leader who wants to leave the EU and follow an agenda that’s about 30 years out of date isn’t the way forward.

An agenda that opposes privatisation, austerity etc isn’t 30 years out of date. It is the here and now.

Blaming Labour gives the Tories a free pass. It is the Tories that have got us to this point, not Labour. How would completely opposing Brexit help Labour? Public opinion on Brexit hasn’t changed enough. That is the sad reality.

I’m not blaming Labour. I’m blaming Corbyn.

He could have turned this country around if he’d had the inclination - but he doesn’t.

Have you ever watched PMQ’s?

If you have, how can you defend the fact he lets TM off the hook every single time.

There was no choice in the last GE but to vote for a party who would a) have half a chance and b) support Brexit.

If Labour stood on an anti Brexit ticket in a GE where it would make a difference it would be a different story.

PMQs is a pointless circus.

The 2 party system is the result of FPTP

Standing on an anti Brexit ticket guarantees nothing when the mood on Brexit has barely changed. Backing the pro EU Lib Dem’s at the last election wasn’t exactly successful was it?

I find the anti Corbyn comments here quite depressing. Not because I have a burning desire for people here to support Corbyn but rather a failure to see the bigger picture.

Yeah sorry i can't see past the anti semitism that he is failing to tackle and is now in the hands of the met police.

My issue here is you appear to want a Labour government just so it’s not a Tory one

No i don't, i gave several policies that put clear blue water from the Tories, your assertion is bollox.

Unfortunately though, as previous Tory voters, you have to accept some responsibility for Brexit, they were always a highly euro-sceptic party with a referendum in their manifesto, the ERG in one form or another has been around for decades.

Labour policies fully supported by JC are forward thinking and certainly not in the past.

PMQ's is a Pantomime and not something any sensible person would judge a future PM on (DC was also very good at PMQ's too)

There is only one party that might get us a 2nd vote and if you want brexit stopped or a soft brexit supporting Labour is your best bet.

The Met are investigating individual party members NOT JC, the shadow cabinet or the Labour party.

If that idiot Miliband hadn't opened up party membership to anyone with £2 we'd not be in this situation, indeed neither would Corbyn!

Antisemitism is used by the MSM and his party opponents as a rod to beat him with.

The Met are investigating individual party members NOT JC, the shadow cabinet or the Labour party

Aware of that.

Antisemitism is used by the MSM and his party opponents as a rod to beat him with.

Thank for explaining to a Jew what is and isn't anti semitism. Not a good look really.

There is only one party that might get us a 2nd vote and if you want brexit stopped or a soft brexit supporting Labour is your best bet.

Except they have no opportunity to do so on account of the fact there won’t be a GE. Before Brexit.

Not least because labour supported the Tories budget which supports the well paid and refuses to oppose other motions.

You’re not really convincing anyone here.

Where did i say that? you don't know my background, which is part Romany, my ancestors have paid their dues in the pogroms & gas chambers of Europe/Russia.

No one is less guilty of antisemitism, its a scourge throughout Europe/World and needs eliminating.

Not least because labour supported the Tories budget which supports the well paid and refuses to oppose other motions

Jeez @Bear, are you sure your not a brexitier?

Labour oppose the budget and the head line is "Labour cut wages of of our Nurses"
The budget was always going to go through, opposing it is meaningless.

Yep your prob right on the GE, so no point opposing Brexit either is there?

TBH Bear, if your really on 100k, you'll never in a million years vote for Labour, even if Maggie herself headed the party lol!

Personally, I think we should go the other way, and insist on proper FPTP, where the winner has to win a majority of registered voters.

That might have worked for the Referendum. It won't work in those seats where the Tories or Labour invariably return huge majorities. Something else is required i.e. a form of PR and it will only happen when both the major parties realise that they can no longer win a majority. Yes, it risks letting in the likes of UKIP - but when they have got into Local Government, they have mostly shown themselves to be completely shambolic and been given the boot at the next election, although one or two did knuckle down to do the job they were elected for.

What do you mean ‘if I’m really on £100k’?

Why would I lie.

Supporting nurses is not supporting a budget that gives me and my DH £500 each year more and nurses £100 a year.

The very fact you say ‘opposing it is meaningless’ says it all.

TBH Bear, if your really on 100k, you'll never in a million years vote for Labour, even if Maggie herself headed the party lol!

Odd thing to say if course people on those sorts of wages do. Just like there are Labour MPs who are very wealthy.

There are also working class people who vote Tory.

Argh, lost half that.

So there’s no point in supporting not supporting Leave, there’s no point in not supporting the budget.

What is the point of the opposition?

Odd thing to say if course people on those sorts of wages do. Just like there are Labour MPs who are very wealthy.

I think it harks back to when Labour were the party of the working class and Tory the party of the middle class.

The very fact it is still being bandied around now shows it’s not me who’s views are entrenched.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/to-explain-voting-intentions-income-is-more-important-for-the-conservatives-than-for-labour/

There have always been working class Tory voters - they wouldn't have won so many elections without them.

Bearbehind - haven't you been accused in the past of being a Leftie? It just goes to show, Brexit is an issue which cuts across left and right.