People’s Vote Delusion

[PersonaNonGarter]

It isn’t going to happen. For the following reasons:

1. May Government won’t vote for a second referendum
2. No new post-May Tory Government will vote for a second referendum
3. Jeremy Corbyn and those in the Labour Party front benches won’t vote for a second referendum
4. There is no agreement about what the referendum would ask.
5. There is no plausible timetable for a referendum.

Why would Corbyn want a second referendum? He is a Leaver wanting to win in Leave seats. And he wants to implement his domestic agenda, not waste any further time on Brexit votes. The current situation SUITS him.

I just don’t understand why remainers don’t have an axe to grind with the 25% that didn’t bother to take part in this country’s biggest decision for years, couldn’t even be bothered to vote one way or the other,
But yes,DC and Parliament are to blame for giving the people the vote, not expecting a leave win ( not in touch with ordinary people) not have a plan or a joined up idea on how to leave.

I do.

I have an axe to grind with all those lazy feckers who didn't vote. They can join the queue of people responsible for this shitshow. But they aren't at the front.
My dying mother was able to cast her vote. No fecking excuse from anyone apart from being in a coma.

Lots of people couldn't vote.

For a start I know a number of people who received their postal ballots too late.

My brother and sil who live abroad got to vote - they got an honourable Leaver to do their proxy vote.

My idea of a new vote would be to ask: now that we know more about Brexit, do you still want it? And if you do, what kind of Brexit would you prefer? A non-binding opinion poll (as the last one was supposed to be) which is used to help Parliament understand what really is the will of the people. This knowledge, along with other indicators of the likely effects of Brexit, should then be used by our MPs and Lords to do their fucking job.

I think people realised too late that a proxy vote was the only way to go.

I don't know anyone who got their postal ballot in time to be confident that their vote was taken into account.

But as a more general statement you can't require that people vote unless you also require the people asking for their vote to produce a detailed manifesto. I think that not voting in the referendum was a valid choice for people who felt that they were not equipped to make the choice.

Not voting was not a valid choice ina referendum. If you don't vote to block the loons, the loons win. As happened.

I don't disagree the whole thing is a shit show, but honestly...?

It's done. We are leaving, whether you like it or not. The world will still turn, the sun and the moon will rise, people will be born and people will die ... Life goes on.

My dying mum voted by post. In plenty of time. She voted in private. I posted it for her.

Life will go on with empty shops and a tanked economy.

@Talkstotrees
...should then be used by our MPs and Lords to do their fucking job
Agree, this is also evident - most MPs and Lords are well aware of the damage being incurred but are failing in their duty to act in UK's best interest. Demonstrates the pressing need for major constitutional change in UK both within parliament and between member nations.

You know what? It doesn't matter.

All that matters is the message:

Brexit is fucking up
The people who promised Brexit are fucking up
The the whole country is going to be deeply fucked by Brexit

And LOTS AND LOTS of Britons are aware of it and are not supinely ignoring the scale of the fuck up.

When the shit hits the fan, the People know who to blame. And it's not the people calling for a People's Vote.

We're entering a phase of real instability, there is really no way out for May. She can't deliver on Brexit promises and she can't bring her party with he and she can't solve the Irish border question.
There's plenty to say against a second ref but it's still the best out of a bunch of terrible options. At least then the country could be said to make more of an informed choice, now we know all the Brexit promises were undeliverable lies.

@OldSpecklkledHen
'Life goes on' if you're a retiree or don't depend on your job. For a lot of people Brexit will mean unemployment, hardship, missed opportunities. It means young people not studying and travelling abroad. It means research grants going elsewhere and scientists following them. It means wealth moving abroad, basically. It means fewer people having nice lives and interesting jobs and the ability to look after their families.

It's trite beyond belief to say 'life goes on', it would go on after a bloody nuclear catastrophe but you should still avoid one at all costs!

@OldSpeckledHen
It's done. We are leaving, whether you like it or not. The world will still turn, the sun and the moon will rise, people will be born and people will die ... Life goes on.

Beg to differ - it is most definitely not done. No viable Withdrawal Agreement yet, still currently in EU, can still revoke A50, >1% (i.e. ~700,000) of UK population willing to forgo their Saturday pleasures to object to this, government in perpetual crisis, opinion polls shifting to remain, ....

It is not done precisely because while the basics of life will continue, Brexit will make entire UK population's life worse and will diminish our nation in the short, medium and long term. Many people are patriots and care for their country and fellow citizens.

HoustonBess undeliverable lies, it depends on and why you voted leave,
If you want to leave The EU
Keep the 12 billion ( net )
Control FOM ( not the 3 month rule )
Make more decision yourself
Not have the ECJ overruling us on many things including deportations

"Not voting was not a valid choice ina referendum. If you don't vote to block the loons, the loons win. As happened."

I don't agree. The referendum asked people to vote on a very big question based on not enough information. It was a question that should not have been asked and not answering it was a rational decision.

If all those people who felt unequipped to answer the question had voted randomly the result would have even the same.

As for postal votes many in Europe received their ballot papers too late.

Not have the ECJ overruling us on many things including deportations

It’s the ECHR rather than the ECJ in most deportion cases though.

The UK argues about 6 cases per year in the ECJ, and many of those have been to do with treatment of urban wastewaters.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/latest/new-analysis-shows-uk-rarely-taken-european-court

The thread was about the People’s Vote delusion - the idea that it could happen or that it might fix division.

What’s interesting is that not many people seem to think they play any part in healing the division after Brexit. There is so much aggression, abuse etc. (All one way, on this thread).

None of the angry ‘fuck em’ type posters seem to think that they could be part of the problem going forward.

Tbh, it is pretty grim to ‘wish harm’ on other people. But through some cognitive dissonance/whataboutery this nastiness is given a free pass (because it is aimed at thick racist leavers)

To be honest, I was fairly up for it in the beginning. My tolerance is rock bottom. My trust has gone. My hope is gone. I see no vision I can buy into.

I don't feel like I belong in the country I was born in.

I don't see much in the way being extended by those that voted leave. Maybe those that caused it should take some responsibility for fixing.

All I see is those that caused it dishing out blame. Blame the EU for doing it's job and blame the remainers for not believing.

We had our vote.

We voted 67% in favour of staying.

Oh wait, that was in 1975.

Those who hated the EEC/EU spent the next 40+ years campaigning against our membership, despite the growth and benefits that the EU had given us.

Someone does something shit to me and my family and it is my job to be nice to them. In any other scenario that would be appalling advice.
It takes a helluva lot for me to say fuck 'em. We've reached that point.
Oh I suppose I'll make nice eventually because I am nice. But not now.

Tbh, it is pretty grim to ‘wish harm’ on other people

Yes is is, leavers wishing harm on me, my family and my country (inc NI) whose close family members have fought and died for.
These fuckwits want to undo all the good that has been achieved in this country since the 70's, when this genuine war time generation voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EEC.
There is a FB post going around talking about an 84 year old being asked for his passport and him replying "well, i didnt fucking need it on D-day in 1944 when i last visited France " yeah when you were barely 11yo! these idiots can't even add up!

Yesterday the Formula 1 experts were saying how many teams are based in the UK, its the place to be, with its technical expertise, mobility of highly skilled engineers, teams and personal, just one example how a global Britain (which is what it is in the EU) can achieve.
ARM and Pharma are other examples.

There is so much aggression, abuse etc. (All one way, on this thread).

No one has abused anyone posting in here. People are expressing much more general feelings of anger, distrust and betrayal.

You've asked remainers how they would heal the division. So I'm throwing that back to you @PersonaNonGarter : what do you think the leave side should have done or should do, go take into account the feelings of what is now (assuming no one has changed their mind, but accounting for leaver deaths and young people coming of age) half the electorate?