People’s Vote Delusion

[PersonaNonGarter]

It isn’t going to happen. For the following reasons:

1. May Government won’t vote for a second referendum
2. No new post-May Tory Government will vote for a second referendum
3. Jeremy Corbyn and those in the Labour Party front benches won’t vote for a second referendum
4. There is no agreement about what the referendum would ask.
5. There is no plausible timetable for a referendum.

Why would Corbyn want a second referendum? He is a Leaver wanting to win in Leave seats. And he wants to implement his domestic agenda, not waste any further time on Brexit votes. The current situation SUITS him.

No remainer ever gives a straight answer.

This actually made me laugh out loud.

So the 700,000 March is invalid because people weren't mean to you.

Plenty of posts on here pre-March. Not one saying "don't be mean".
Is that the best you've got?

So the 700,000 March is invalid because people weren't mean to you.

Also, it wasn't valid because it was all Londoners.

Also, it wasn't valid because it was all out-of-towners who were really there to sightsee.

Also, it wasn't valid because it was all foreigners.

I don't think the March for people's vote did anything but displayed the strength of feeling. I toyed with the idea of going but Cornwall is just too far away from London and I don't think it achieves anything. It certainly won't heal the division and I think this has polarised the country. I also don't think we will get another referendum although I hope I am wrong.

Some people voted leave as far as I can tell for totally irrelevant reasons or they believed the lies. No one as yet has articulated reasons for leaving which I can agree with and I have to say I agree with many on this thread in that I hope they suffer the most after Brexit. It is not my place to heal division and I still ardently disagree with those who voted leave. I don't see why I should just try and make it better. I think it is a mistake and we have resigned our country to a decade of economic uncertainty and ostracised us from our neighbours. I accept that in a democracy we have to go with the majority so am just sitting back to see what happens.

I very much doubt anyone who believes in this shit show is open to having their minds changed. They need reminders that we aren't all with them.
And need reminding that I won't be fighting with you for whatever is on the empty shelves in the supermarket. Because I have my stuff as a prepper and I won't be sharing.
And I have Irish citizenship so I won't be queuing up with you on holiday and, despite your best efforts, you haven't managed to take my DD's EU rights off her because she is entitled to Irish citizenship too.
Does that fit on a poster?

Is surferjet now actually complaining that Remoaners [sic] weren't rude enough on Saturday?

Ah, you really are the gift that keeps on giving, surfer

I love the idea that a good-natured and friendly march must mean that three-quarters of a million people were all told not to write mean banners. How - by text? Poor old George Soros, his mobile bill will be massive this month...

Isn't one point of a march to show the strength of feeling? As with the Civil Rights marches in the USA, or the Eastern blocs marches against communism? Would we have known that people were angry and not prepared to be treated as doormats if they had not protested? At a greater personal cost than many of us.

At least when Theresa May starts babbling about the country being behind her, she will know that 700,000 people thought otherwise. Many of whom had come from far flung corners of the UK, as could be seen by the coaches waiting to take them home.

The only Leavers I have any real sympathy with are those who hoped it would lead to more money for the NHS. Sadly I can't rustle up an Irish passport and am not nearly wealthy enough to buy a Maltese passport.

surfer there was no need to be rude on banners - just being truthful was enough.

You and other leavers often state that Remainers are always rude to Leavers on here but that's simply not true.

I've never seen either of the statements you made actually said to Leavers, let alone 10's more.

If someone is blatantly racist or posts things that are clearly wrong they get pulled up for it.

People don't go around being rude just for the sake of it, contrary to what you seem to think is the case.

I think this boils down to yet another tactic to try and convince yourself that Leave is all going swimmingly.

No remainer ever gives a straight answer,You didn’t mention your real thoughts about leavers because it would be bad publicity & you were probably warned not to

Warned? don't be ridiculous! you follow these threads, so unless you are particularly thick, you'll have a v good idea of what remainers think of leavers and vice versa!

The march wasn't aimed at influencing Mumsnet Leavers. It was aimed at persuading the Govt to give us another vote and generally make our voices heard. Some of the banners weren't exactly complementary to our current politicians.

I very much doubt anyone who believes in this shit show is open to having their minds changed.

Well, there’s a chance that goes both ways?

This thread emphasises how bad the division has got and how ‘othering’ the Brexit debate has become. People ‘wishing harm’ on ‘thick xenophobes’ etc. It goes in the opposite direction too, Leave towards Remain, but for obvious reasons of having won the vote the Leavers are less angry and spitefilled.

So many of the posters on here genuinely believe they have obligation or incentive to be good/kind/empathetic to the ‘other’ half. (‘Fuck em’) . It’s like they believe people who voted the other way to them are beneath them. These posters have absolved themselves ‘because someone else did X’. That’s not how personal morality works.

The division has not got bad because people marched. It got bad because "Brexit" became about completely ignoring the near 50-50 split of the vote.

Blame the leadership. But don't try to shame people for still being angry that no-one in government even attempted to find a compromise.

@PersonaNonGarter

As i said earlier, leave under any circumstance (figures from Brexit seeking Gov) will damage the the UK, so why exactly should i be empathetic towards the fuckwits who have caused this harm?

NB Fuckwits being the Government (and their supporters) who lack even a semblance of leadership.

It still comes down to the simple issue of facts vs belief. Like many remain voters after the vote I thought damn, but maybe I'm wrong and it will actually be better. When the architects reveal their plans all will be made clear and I'll do my best for my family and the country, is what I thought. But there is no plan, there are no demonstrable upsides, it is in fact a shitshow combined with a cluster fuck of enormous proportions. There is no evidence that it will be better, there is no likelihood of better deals for UK - we are highly likely to have voted to make ourselves poorer, and as a patriot that is heartbreaking.

but for obvious reasons of having won the vote the Leavers are less angry and spitefilled.

A very quick search on MN produced this little gem:
Hope all the remainers have gone to the other pub down the road..the Remoaners Return.
Whose face is on the dart board?
Junker's
No, not Junker, red Tooth Brush

Why that wasn't reported and deleted is beyond me.

Another, not insulting a MNer, but a public figure:
Morning everyone - may I nominate Emma Thompson for the dartboard

So it's no surprise today to read about Tory MPs turning on May taking about nooses and knives, and no they weren't Remain voting MPs. Mind you, we could have told May that however much she appeased her right wing, they would come for her in the end.

Does this sound like people who are not angry and spitefilled? If it does, you could have fooled me.

Wow, Peregrina. I'd not spent that much time in the Brexit Arms, I'd not realised just how vicious it was towards Red. (Who, it must be said, is better known for thoughtful analysis than getting involved in slanging matches.)

That’s not how personal morality works.

That's not how your definition of personal morality works. You are entitled as anyone else to live by your own moral code. But not to dictate to others what theirs should be within the confines of the law

It’s like they believe people who voted the other way to them are beneath them.

Perhaps they do. In this they would be akin to the government, and its supporters who bought into their propaganda about poor people, disabled people and immigrants.

I spent absolutely no time in the original Brexit Arms - this was just a very quick trawl tonight, just to give the lie to any Leaver saying that they are less angry and spiteful. I made a post last week on another thread, and a Leaver immediately replied to tell me to F* off. And no, it wasn't in response to language I had used either.

There were some thoughtful leavers, Corcory and Howabout were two, with whom you could have a reasonable discussion, but they seem to have departed the threads these days.

I am pointing out that with the exception of one or two notable posters you all feel entitled to detest and be aggressive towards and about your fellow countrymen. The ‘fuckwits’.

Posters justifying finding 50% of other people beneath them. Snarling that you hope ‘you and yours suffer food shortages’. And this isn’t even a particularly bad thread.

And the best you can do is say ‘They do it too’ or ‘they’ve done something shit to me, they deserve it’. Look at yourselves (that goes for aggro Leavers too). Own what this is doing to you: a mad intellectual segregation.

Posters justifying finding 50% of other people beneath them.

50% of the people in the UK did not vote for Brexit

I am pointing out that with the exception of one or two notable posters you all feel entitled to detest and be aggressive towards and about your fellow countrymen. The ‘fuckwits’.

I am going to disagree with you - think of the sheer poison printed by the Daily Mail calling judges traitors, saboteurs, and Gina Miller by taking a court case to make May realise that she had to obey the rules of Parliamentary democracy receiving death threats. This has come from the Leave camp. By contrast, this weekend 700,000 of us marched, peacefully, with only a modest police presence, and there was no violence and no arrests. Judge people by what they do!

For all the fine words from Davis, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, none of them has been man enough to put up and attempt to do the job of PM. Much much easier to snipe from the sidelines.

But if I had a family member who was dependent on medication to stay alive, and I didn't know how those supplies would be affected after March next year, I would be angry with someone.

So you acknowledge that there is anger, aggression and division, but only one side is responsible for it? The other side?

As far as the Press are concerned, it's come from the right wing papers. As far as Parliament is concerned the recent nastiness has come from the right wing of the Tory party. It was a right wing zealot who murdered an MP. I see much of it as being one sided. Do you honestly think that if Farage, for all his noise, had managed to get 700,000 people to march that there wouldn't have been violence and arrests?

Come on, this is the side which won.

So you acknowledge that there is anger, aggression and division, but only one side is responsible for it? The other side?

Eh? She wrote that she would be angry with someone if her relative's medication runs out next year.