Reasons to remain and reasons to leave

[MyNameIsArthur]

I am hoping this thread can be constructive, respectful and insult free on both sides and to be informative.

I would like to hear everyone's views on why they think it important to remain or leave. I want to hear what the positives and negatives are for remain or leave, in the short, medium and long term in your opinion.

Also, if leave will definitely happen, then what do you think would be the best deal we should try for? What future relationship would you like with the EU?

You seem to fall very much into the camp of 'your work was done after you put your cross on the box and the rest was up to the government'.

Surely that is the camp for all of us because we voted to leave or stay without any other options on the box and our govt is there to get a deal that us in our best interests?

I will go through my reasons for leaving. I know you won't agree with my reasons and I'm sure you will point out flaws in my reasons. All I ask is that you respect my right to have different views from yourself and that they are not based on stupidity. Believe me, it was not an easy decision to make. At the time, I was not sure which way to vote. I admit to the media over many years influencing my views but I did read up on stuff leading up to the referendum and compiled a list of points Reasons for leaving and reasons for remaining.

I did post a thread on mumsnet after the referendum detailing my vision of Brexit and how I thought we should instigate it but I admit I was maybe naive thinking our govt would be able to agree a good future relationship with the EU. So as you know, my opinion has changed recently in that I now believe we should have a second referendum or even to revoke article 50, because I have lost confidence in our Govts ability to negotiate and our country's strength in taking the risk.

@MyNameIsArthur

Why don't you come on the March on the 20th?

www.peoples-vote.uk/march

Arthur
Which legislation originated in Brussels that you expect to go with Brexit (ideally for the good of the country) ?

I can't Ken. As am in hospital then. I have written to Theresa May though and am writing to my local MP

I have lost confidence in our Govts ability to negotiate and our country's strength in taking the risk.

Out of interest, OP, is it that you have lost interest in this government's ability to negotiate on our behalf, or do you now think it would have been impossible for any government to negotiate a reasonable deal for us?

The thing is, much as I hate the Tories and despise Theresa May, I don't actually blame her for the mess that we're in, because I don't think it would have been possible for any government of any political party to achieve a successful Brexit. I do blame the Tories and David Cameron for the fact that we had the referendum in the first place, but that's a different story. Once the vote had happened and "we" had decided to leave, I think the entire project was doomed to fail from the very outset. For this reason alone, regardless of any other pros/cons associated with EU membership, I would never have contemplated voting leave. The Northern Ireland issue alone always seemed to me to be an insoluble problem, let alone all of the economic issues etc.

You obviously felt differently at the time of the referendum, but I am curious now as to whether you still feel that we could have made a go of it, if things had been handled differently, or whether you now feel (like me) that the mess we're now in was inevitable from the point at which the leave vote won. And if you do think it's the current government's fault, what exactly do you think they should have done differently in order to ensure a smooth Brexit?

Arthur I hope you keep posting. I don’t have an issue with people who voted to leave apart from those who voted out of blatant xenophobia.
Very few people in this country have the depth of knowledge about the EU that is needed to make this kind of decision. I include myself in that and I have a Politics degree.
And then there were the blatant lies and targeting by Cambridge Analytica and breaking of electoral rules.
Generally, the standard of debate/discussion from Leavers on these threads amounts to ‘you lost, get over it’ and calling us ‘Remoaners’ (excuse me while I split my sides at their wit).
If I had my way, Cameron would be in jail instead of writing his memoirs in his £25k shed

I just cannot get past the feeling of embarrassment at what my country is doing and how it is doing it. Our mainstream media are rubbish, we seem to be constantly held to ransom by angry white middle aged men, not that I have anything against them, I married one. But we look ridiculous.

Cameron would be in jail

I don't think he broke any laws though, misconduct in public office? I think we will certainly go down in history as the worse PM ever.

Good question Alexa . I believed that it is in the EUs interest as well as the UKs to have a deal in place because we import a large amount from the EU as well as export. I accepted that in some respects a deal outside the EU would not equate with 'the deal' we have in the EU. I thought maybe we could have a deal similar to Switzerland. I admit I failed to be aware of the issue of Northen Ireland which I regret. Obviously this has turned out to be the main obstacle in getting a deal, and I suppose Labour or any other party if they were in government, would have had the same difficulty in getting a deal and so wouldn't have faired any better. I am disappointed in David Cameron in resigning because I think we needed stable government and continuity after the referendum and also not wasting time with leadership contests and then Theresa May holding a general election. I think the govt should have been better prepared and put plans together before evoking article 50. I guess any PM though would have difficulty comibg up with arrangement that would satisfy the EU, our parliament, the DUP, their own party plus the voters. It us very complex

They originated in Brussels but our Govts signed up to them without our say so
Yet we have a Parliamentary democracy with MPs as representatives not delegates. Each party publishes a Manifest before the election, setting out what they would like to achieve if elected. You may recall that the 2015 Tory Manifesto promised to enfranchise overseas voters who had been out of the country for more than 15 years. It also promised a commitment to the Single Market. Presumably enough people liked those ideas to give Cameron a majority. We also elect MEPs although a significant number of leavers don't bother with the European elections. Then again one of our elected MEPs, who was on the fishing committee only bothered to turn up to one meeting out of 42 which were held. So it's not so much a matter of no say so, but a dereliction of duty on the part of our elected representatives.

......Theresa May, I don't actually blame her for the mess that we're in, because I don't think it would have been possible for any government of any political party to achieve a successful Brexit.

I do, because she adopted an agressive tone from the beginning, and capitulated to the ERG and right wingers in her party. She could, immediately on taking office, said, "The vote was close, I will set up cross party working group to examine the options." Cameron had said he would stay on and enact the result, but he cleared off immediately and she could have said that she wasn't bound by his personal promises. She could have reminded the Tory party that they had put a commitment to the single market in their manifesto, which they had just got re-elected on the back of, so perhaps they should support it.

Arthur, I’m sorry the Telegraph article has upset you, that wasn’t my intention. I googled ‘reasons to leave the EU’ and up it popped. The Telegraph is one of the most Brexity newspapers out there and this was in their paper on 22nd June 2016. One can only assume that it was meant to be a serious piece; why has it upset you so?

Thank you PCPlum. I will. I said I would post on here my reasons at the time for leaving. I may have to do this tomorrow though as is getting late. Sorry!

Then again one of our elected MEPs, who was on the fishing committee only bothered to turn up to one meeting out of 42 which were held

That was Nigel Farage for the posters who didn't know.

@MyNameIsArthur

I hope you get well soon and are not in hospital for to long. And as for not knowing about the NI issue, the Leave side were very successful in shutting down all discussion of that before the referendum.

My reasons to remain:

I honestly fear a trade deal in which a desperate UK is strong-armed by the USA. It has hardly been a secret really, even before the US election Trump's Secretary of Commerce, Wilbur Ross said (a day after the referendum result) that Brexit was a gift to US business to carve up British business interests and he followed that opinion up with a speech in London last year in which he made it very clear that US would demand that the UK reduces it's animal welfare standards in meat production, specifically allowing for US chlorine washed chicken and to allow GMO foods, both of these things to be expressly prohibited from being labeled to show their origins. I'm not actually bothered by GMO foods really but the imposition by the USA that we cannot label our food makes me angry. If I have a choice between meat & dairy still produced to a higher UK (EU) standard over the awful farming practices of American meat & dairy then I would of course want to buy UK products.

Then there's forcing the UK to open up NHS contracts to US healthcare companies. Just sit back and watch prices rise, quality go down and specifically drug prices to rise (a particular obsession of Trump is that he wants European countries to pay more for drugs, a US trade deal will undoubtedly include measure to allow US drug companies to impose higher prices). This is the future out of the EU and it requires a hard Brexit since staying in the customs union means keeping EU standards which would prevent the USA from selling lower welfare products in the UK. This is why people like Rees-Mogg and Johnson want a hard Brexit, they want the UK to resemble the USA where lax regulations create an environment where rich owners/investors get all the spoils and workers have few rights and no say, it's fucking Thatcher's vision 2.0. I can't believe people actually want this over the EU.

Rainbunny - the annoying thing is that so many Leavers went on about Sovereignty and Making our own laws. It doesn't seem to bother them in the slightest that they will be rule takers as far as the US is concerned.

Thank you Kenn. Is continuous treatment for blood cancer but am in remission now so am doing well. At the time of the referendum I was really disappointed with the quality of the whole campaign. I tried to do my own research to help with my decision. I wish I had realised about the NI issue. I can only blame myself for that. I am reading a book at the moment and it is starting to change how I feel about the EU. Unfortunately that has come too late. I need to get to bed soon.

Kenn I know DC didn’t break any laws but I consider what he did to be criminally incompetent/negligent.
Giving the public a binary vote on such a complex issue and then not specifying a minimal turnout or majority in order for the result to be binding was breathtakingly arrogant. What would he have done if Leave has won by one vote?
And then not coming up with any kind of plan in the event of a Leave vote and buggering off humming. Twat

Good luck with your treatment Arthur.
I will admit that the Remain book was extremely thin - they could have done a much better job of selling the EU. Except, it's been convenient to use it as an excuse when Westminster has been failing.

@MyNameIsArthur

I wish I had realised about the NI issue. I can only blame myself

I remember watching Question Time before the ref when Nigel Farage was on, a panel member (can't remember who) raised the Irish border issue, Nigel Farage aggressively pointed at him and said "don't you dare raise that" and the other bloke did stop taking about it. The implication before the referendum was that anybody mentioning it was threatening violence if people didn't vote the way they wanted. The Leave side has since gone on to threaten actually violence if hard enough Brexit isn't delivered.

I wish I had realised about the NI issue. I can only blame myself for that.

Actually, I think it was an abject failure of the Remain campaign that they did not shout loudly enough about this issue. Concerns were raised, and articles were written, but politicians from all parties should have worked harder to raise awareness of this issue. No doubt it would have been dismissed by the Leave campaign as Project Fear, like just about every other legitimate concern that was raised, but perhaps if people had been more aware, the outcome would have been different.

The quality of both campaigns was very poor, but I think the problem with Remain was that we were all too complacent. I think the arguments to stay in seemed so blindingly obvious to us that we failed to articulate them as effectively as we should have done. The politicians must take the lion's share of the blame for that, but ultimately, in a democracy, I guess we're all responsible.

By the way, OP, hope all goes well for you with your treatment.

@AlexaShutUp - lots and lots of "shouting " about NI on here prior to the referendum. If anyone didn't know about it it was their own foolishness. It was kinda staring you in the face.

There was lots of talk, and shouting, and pleading. I tried to explain the Northern Ireland issue to friends who were thinking of voting leave, but it got dismissed as “they will find a way” and “it will be all right”. The Remain campaign could have made a more positive case for staying in the EU, but ultimately it was doomed (not least due to Corbyn’s lack of support, at least in my area).

@missmoon

Same here. Usually just a disinterested shrug off the shoulders. I think Yougov did a poll of Leavers and (if I remember correctly) 70%+ would want Brexit even if it meant a return to the troubles. I think the sad fact is most people in England don't give a shit about NI if they did they wouldn't have voted Leave. If fairness, most people (both leave and remain) didn't know it was a issue. Leave was very effective at shutting down all debate by saying it was a threat of violence from remain if people don't vote our way.