Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 18:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

woman11017 · 16/07/2018 18:25

@Haggis_UK
Chris Leslie - I think we've got the measure of Jacob Rees-Mogg now.. he used to be quite an entertaining curiosity in this place.. NO longer.. he represents a major present threat to the future of our economy & the jobs of our constituents

woman11017 · 16/07/2018 18:27

It honestly wouldn't surprise me I know Mrs8 she has. Her speech just there was good though. Really good. Like Cooper, Cherrry etc

citroenpresse · 16/07/2018 18:28

thecatfromjapan that's right, so why has she accepted the amendments? Something weird is going on.

Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 18:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cherrypi · 16/07/2018 18:30

I wish Yvette Cooper was Labour leader. Watching her on bbc parliament at the moment and she’s great.

Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 18:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 18:43

Hmm.

Trump has rattled cages in the Republican party and amongst conservative circles today.

Jim Sciutto @jimsciutto
GOP @SpeakerRyan comes out strongly against Trump on Russia: "There is no question that Russia interfered in our election and continues attempts to undermine democracy...The president must appreciate that Russia is not our ally. There is no moral equivalence”

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 18:45

Garry Kasparov @Kasparov63
I'm ready to call this the darkest hour in the history of the American presidency. Let me know if you can think of any competition.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44852812
Trump sides with Russia against FBI at Helsinki summit

OP posts:
Yaralie · 16/07/2018 18:45

Let's not forget that the only foreign leaders who supported brexit in 2016 were Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin and the French Fascist Marine le Pen.

Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 18:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

woman11017 · 16/07/2018 18:53

Exclusive: Theresa May was warned by business leaders that her Brexit customs bill is 'not fit for purpose
uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-warned-business-leaders-brexit-customs-bill-is-not-fit-for-purpose-2018-7

A journalist was manhandled out of the Helsinki press conference earlier. Erdoganny.

@brianklaas
Imagine watching FDR hold a press conference next to Emperor Hirohito and say both sides are to blame for Pearl Harbor.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 16/07/2018 18:54

I see Trump has just had a Chamberlain moment.

Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 18:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 19:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

citroenpresse · 16/07/2018 19:03

EXACTLY THIS Ken Clarke:
"The government has only got to vote against those new clauses and I’m absolutely certain the opposition parties will not be able to think of any sensible reason why they should help [Jacob Rees-Mogg] and others to get a majority in this House.

We can demonstrate they are a tiny handful of people and their arguments are most certainly not in the national interest."

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 19:10

Kevin Schofield @ polhomeeditor
Labour MP after Labour MP getting up at PLP meeting to say party wrong not to accept internationally-accepted definition of anti-Semitism. Party spokesperson: "They are the most detailed and comprehensive guidelines on anti-Semitism adopted by any political party in this country.

Wtf

OP posts:
SwedishEdith · 16/07/2018 19:18

.

woman11017 · 16/07/2018 19:41

@jameschappers
Magnificent stuff from the leader of the opposition> Grin
@Anna_Soubry attacked "ideologically driven" colleagues with "gold-plated pensions and inherited wealth" for ignoring the "reality" of Brexit.

Anti semitism is rife and has a rich history round here. PLP is just using to try to unblock the political constipation caused by Corbyn. Unless they're going to call out the SWP for what it is, it's pointless. Labour needs a Soubry, but look at what labour does to women who speak their mind. Or just speak.

thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 19:51

Anyone who thinks voting 'Leave' to be a good idea at this point is, frankly, thick beyond help or treasonous. Really.

You can't argue with those two groups.

This is a train wreck.

And I wouldn't be counting on Labour to vote those ammendments.

woman11017 · 16/07/2018 19:58

Labour might be a bit antsy about this too. Paul Mason:
^British journalist accused of beating Jewish anti-Corbyn protester
Chairman of Dutch Jewish student group claims Paul Mason attacked him for unfurling banner reading 'Labour — for the many, not the Jew^
www.timesofisrael.com/british-journalist-accused-of-beating-jewish-anti-corbyn-protester/

Ken Clarke, in his speech, looked squarely at the labour benches and challenged them to support tory remainers. Woolaston was pointing at them.

woman11017 · 16/07/2018 20:00

Did you have a word cat Grin
@faisalislam
LATEST: Opposition chief whip told Labour MPs will now oppose four ERG Rees Mogg amendments accepted by Government, expect at least 1 to be pushed to vote -numbers now tight, Government could be defeated on something it only just accepted, which appears contrary to own FCA policy

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 20:04

Kevin Schofield @ polhomeeditor
BREAKING: Labour MPs overwhelmingly pass motion calling on the party to adopt the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of anti-Semitism. Big rebuke to leadership, who are refusing to do so.

Nick Robinson @ bbcnickrobinson
Let me see if I’ve understood the latest Brexit manoeuvring. @JacobReesMogg & chums tabled amendments designed to kill PM’s Chequers Plan. PM accepts them as ‘consistent’ with Plan. So @Anna_Soubry & Tory Remainers now rebelling instead. Simples! #Motherofallparliaments

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 20:06

Sam Coates Times @ samcoatestimes
So opposition MPs now attempting to ambush the government - with the help of remainer Tory MPs. If enough turn up, there's trouble

Now would be a good time to demonstrate where the parliamentary majority on Brexit actually is to the ERG and to May.

As I say, this could do more damage to Mogg than May.

OP posts:
frumpety · 16/07/2018 20:09

So the ERG demand amendments , May rolls over and gives in , and they still have to be voted through ? So if they aren't voted through then it isn't Mays fault ? And then you break up early for the long Summer recess before anyone else can come up with any more amendments ?

Swipe left for the next trending thread