Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 15:39

Remember the Grieve amendment ?

DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 15:48

Anyone elses antennae picking up a slightly odd vibe ?

hard to qualify, but a very faint unease from the Leave (not Brexit) camp. A little like "we're going to get blamed for this car crash, even though we never wanted it."

Maybe it was always there, but drowned out by the WE WON. GET OVER IT reporting. Also because generally there's little use wasting precious energy until something is actually decided (yes, folks. nearly 18 months since A50 and still nothing has been decided).

But now the future is hoving - ever so faintly into view - who'd be a Leaver and blamed for what's about to happen.

MN might be the perfect place to examine these dynamics. It's a little akin to having to pluck up the courage to leave your abusive OH, and return to your less abusive, but totally unbearable DM (or DF). Because make no mistake, Brexiteers are bullies. Of the worst kind. They're not even pretending they're doing it for the good of the country (or any country) now. It's just some obscene ceremony with quasi-religious overtones that has to be gone through because no one has dared say "stop". The story of Abraham and Isaac springs to mind. Which should appeal to supposed god-bothers like Theresa May, and JRM.

BrexitWife · 16/07/2018 15:59

I'm withdrawing my support for Brexit. Did not sufficiently account for: the incompetence of UK politics; the madness of Brexiteers; the deep aversion to EEA; NI; Customs; and of course Trump.
Not switching to Remain but if we do now remain I'll shrug.

I would agree with that. And I think a lot of politicians are now frightened of the consequences of Brexit.
If the U.K. leaves the EU, they will be held responsible for the mess (and it will be messy with plenty of job losses).
If the U.K. doesn’t leave the EU, they will have failed.
If we end up with a norvégien option, they will still be seen as having failed and the fact that we would have the same restrictions but no power over them will loom over political for decades.

Basically, whatever they way, they are loosing big style. No way to make it a Success.

DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 16:05

Basically, whatever they way, they are loosing big style. No way to make it a Success.

There probably isn't enough foil in the world for the suggestion that may have been the aim all along.

(hears in head)

When the old men do the fighting and the young men all look on,
And the young girls eat their mothers meat from tubes of plastic-on

BestIsWest · 16/07/2018 16:06

Is it too early for Gin?

54321go · 16/07/2018 16:07

I for one am getting bored with all this now. I want to see tanks surrounding Westminster for 'security' with some troops. I am not suggesting any shooting or even which way the tanks face, towards or away from Westminster.
It might give a message to the country that things ARE serious and it might be a good idea to listen up.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 16:10

The polls are showing that not enough people blame the EU. This is a problem. I suspect there are Brexiteers who hoped to stoke up more anger against the EU. It may yet happen, but right now it doesn't matter and the more this lot get in a pickle shouting at each other, the less they are setting up that narrative...

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 16:18

I for one am getting bored with all this now. I want to see tanks surrounding Westminster for 'security' with some troops. I am not suggesting any shooting or even which way the tanks face, towards or away from Westminster.

Pretty certain there were gun emplacements built during the Napoleonic wars on the South coast which faced inland Hmm ...

54321go · 16/07/2018 16:23

@DGR
Would make sense if they were built by the French so they could either cover their backs if retreating or maintaining a foothold.

DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 16:25

Would make sense if they were built by the French so they could either cover their backs if retreating or maintaining a foothold.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmerston_Forts,_Portsmouth

Many years ago I know I read somewhere that at the time, it was felt the government was more afraid of it's own mob than the French.

Have Brexiteers hanged any monkeys lately ?

lonelyplanetmum · 16/07/2018 16:25

The polls are showing that not enough people blame the EU. This is a problem.

It's a short term problem that's easily rectified. All that's needed is to send a few bent banana stories into the social media vacuum and EU venom will be back on schedule.

lonelyplanetmum · 16/07/2018 16:29

Migration from EU to UK lowest for four years, ONS figures show www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44846002

Peregrina · 16/07/2018 16:34

Well at least the Leavers are getting their way on something with the migration figures down. Oh whoops, the non EU figures are up

thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 16:36

What a mess.

Govey's now admitting he was wrong about immigration.

Add into that the wider picture (the former US ambassador to the EU saying we're in a '1930s type scenario), the German FS saying they are looking away from the White House and the mess that is Brexit couldn't be clearer.

I'm with you, DGR, I think Brexiteers -the vast rump, not the bits, shills, ideologues and people set to clean up - have become quieter and quieter.

Unsurprisingly.

They were played.

They've actually, really opened the door to fascism.

They have set in course an action that has damaged and will damage the UK.

It's clearer with every passing day.

And, while I think they'll still huff and puff if asked their position, quietly most wouldn't vote that way again.

I DO think a lot of Leavers are actually very uninformed/uninvolved. It's not just the fact they've 'won' that keeps people from organising or attending pro-Brexit rallies.

I seriously am 😏 at the idea of hundreds of pro-Brexit letters arriving in the offices of MPs.

But, that lack of informed ness is worrying. I think a lot of them have no clue what 'No Deal' means. I suspect quite a few think it's the same as finding you don't have your purse, so leaving your basket and walking out of the supermarket.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 16:39

Laura Kuennsberg @ bbclaurak
Even more messy - now told some Tory MPs will vote against the govt tonight because they are so cross that ministers have given into the ERG

OP posts:
lonelyplanetmum · 16/07/2018 16:42

Yes rah rah - why hasn't the UKIP etc focus shifted to scare mongering about non EU migration now?

Wonder how the 'news'papers will report this? Shouldn't it be the flood is stemmed or something?

Wait. Didn't some thinking Brexit bods maintain they wanted to open up migration so it was more equally distributed outside the EU.

thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 16:46

That, I think, was inevitable - and another example of May's stunning political crassness. She'd pissed off the ERG but they couldn't topple her. Now was the time to go softer (and realistic, and pro-Business). She knew she had to rely on centrist Labour and Remain Conservatives.
She was warned by Greening and Mandelson (that, in part, is what the call for a second vote is about).

But no. May caves, publicly, to the ERG.

It's crazy.

And it'll be unacceptable to the EU anyway.

What a mess.

DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 16:47

Govey's now admitting he was wrong about immigration.

Play the game ! Grin. Cite ?

thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 16:49

And bollocks to business being on board with the white paper. Lloyd's, just one example, have said they're upping their plans to build up their Brussels base.

But I think, until the BBC find their spine, all of this will just drift past the rump of the electorate. People don't like bad news. If you make it difficult for people to hear that news, they'll happily ignore it.

Motheroffourdragons · 16/07/2018 16:52

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 16:57

So what was the point of the Chequers sleepover then?

Get rid of DD and BoJo ?

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 16:59

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Former Remain Tory rebels have just had their own meeting with Chief Whip, which was pretty brutal, a source says - real fury inc among some ministers, that No 10 caved to the Brexiteers

OP posts:
thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 16:59

My apologies, DGR.

It's a quote from Gorvy in new book 'Cntrl Alt Delete' where he, apparently. Claims that the Leave campaign was wrong to push so hard on the Turkey issue and immigration angle in particular.

I take that to be Govey distancing himself from lies, racism and presenting immigration as wholly negative.

Creep.

Tanith · 16/07/2018 17:00

I think Boris has well and truly cooked his goose - cranberry sauce and all!

DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 17:01

Former Remain Tory rebels have just had their own meeting with Chief Whip, which was pretty brutal, a source says - real fury inc among some ministers, that No 10 caved to the Brexiteers

Now No. 10 knows what a falling spinning top feels like ....

Swipe left for the next trending thread