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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 17:05

Anyone following the Trump press conference onTwitter/anywhere else?

I have to say, the whole pre-Brexit premise of 'leave the EU and trade with the US' is looking crazier by the minute.

I do think that if we had a functioning media, Trump's endorsement of Boris Johnson would have destroyed BJ.

Instead, we have Steve Bannon on mainstream media.

In fact, I think our vulnerability to such a shameful and worrying relationship (Trump -UK) is one of the things I will hold against the Leavers for longest.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 17:05

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/16/michael-gove-admits-leave-was-wrong-to-fuel-immigration-fears?CMP=twt_gu
Michael Gove admits leave campaign wrong to fuel Turkey fears

Brexiter says he would have preferred campaign to have had ‘slightly different feel’

^The Conservative minister was asked by Tom Baldwin, a former communications director for Ed Miliband, in his book Ctrl Alt Delete whether he had been happy making appeals to “some very low sentiments” in the context of concerns over Turkish immigration. The minister replied: “I know what you mean, yes. If it had been left entirely to me the leave campaign would have a slightly different feel.
Electoral law has been broken – this is a fight for the soul of our democracy^

“I would have to go back and look at everything I said and think whether that was the right response at the right time. There is a sense at the back of my mind that we didn’t get everything absolutely right. It’s a difficult one.”

Warnings about a possible Turkish accession to the EU were a controversial theme of the leave campaign and were frequently made by Gove himself. The leave campaign released a video in May 2016 arguing that “David Cameron cannot be trusted on Turkey”, to back up an argument made in a speech by the minister that if Turkey were to join the EU the impact on the NHS would be “clearly unsustainable”.

Mr Gove, lost temporary control of the connection of his brain to his gob to a sinister political power which forced him against his will to recite stuff he didn't agree with and now says if it had been up to him to control his brain and gob, he wouldn't have said those words.

Yes, most sincere then.

But its a retreat on a position, from a senior politician and that has to be important and significant (even if its for his own personal ambition). And he isn't doubling down on it like Johnson would.

Too little too late perhaps, but it has to be seen in the wider context of others climbing down and retreating.

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CaptainBrickbeard · 16/07/2018 17:08

I am scared. Really scared of what will happen. And so angry that this is being brought down upon us by idiots. All along I have hoped that as the disaster that is Brexit became increased clear that the government would avert it. I truly didn’t believe that they would steer us into chaos and catastrophe but now I don’t think they are competent enough to avoid it. I feel so very, horribly, terribly anxious about what will happen after 29th March. And I don’t see any source of hope anymore that it won’t happen.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 17:08

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
Here is the amendment, now accepted by gvt, that is causing the biggest headache

So the big picture question of the day - notwithstanding things we haven't spotted / unexpected events - seems to be: Was today the day Theresa May lost her ability to get her brexit through Parliament?

Bruno Waterfield @BrunoBrussels
And that's one of the EU's fears, parliament can't go back, can't go forward

Rather than anything in the ERG amendments themselves

If UK heads towards a combined customs territory in legal GATT terms (rather than "as if" in white paper), the ERG amendments seem to me to be irrelevant

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
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citroenpresse · 16/07/2018 17:23

Am loving the ERG amendments could be irrelevant concept. Because ERG have huffed and puffed but now have to get in line behind May to back a white paper they almost certainly don't believe in. And the EU might not reject it after all (because actually their amendments are irrelevant). A Brexit proposal that is as close as dammit to the current situation (without any of the powers) is surely the best chance for remaining because it simply isn't worth leaving.

thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 17:23

A little light relief in the Mayhem:

Donald Tusk @ eucopresident

Twitter 15:07

'America and the EU are best friends. Whoever says we are foes is spreading fake news.'

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 17:36

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Unbelievable blue on blues in Commons now. Anna Soubry mentions Thatcher. Edward Leigh intervenes: "I knew Margaret Thatcher. I worked for Margaret Thatcher. My honourable friend ain't no Margaret Thatcher".
Nicky Morgan heckles back: "Oh pathetic. Is that the best you can do?"

Soubry is making a cracking speech.

She and Vicky Ford have just made the point about WTO rules meaning that we are legally obliged to secure our borders and the EU under their membership of the WTO are also legally obliged to secure our borders.

Therefore the WTO position is completely incompatible with the GFA...

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 17:38

My god Soubry is really having a go at other Tories for supporting a newspaper which has called the PM a traitor.

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 17:39

Joe Murphy @JoeMurphyLondon
Anna Soubry has gone full Rambo against the whole Brexiteer army. Astonishing ballsy performance, whatever your view of in/out

She did an' all

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thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 17:41

Citroen

Apparently, the point of that particular amendment cited (about application and collection of VAR) institutes a hard border between NI and Ireland and is therefore unacceptable to the EU, etc.

(I think.)

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 17:41

I'm not quite sure how she could be more angry or more to the point and more confrontational against Brexiteers.

She's A-N-G-R-Y after the treatment she got for her amendments that the Brexiteers do the same with their amendments.

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thecatfromjapan · 16/07/2018 17:42

😁 Thanks for the report, Red.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 17:43

Kenneth Clarke (paraphrasing here)
The positive thing of these wreaking amendment reveal the tiny number of people who are holding parliament hostage and preventing a deal for the majority of people.

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BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 17:44

More blue on blue:
Bojo and Davis at war over ‘double act’ plot to resign at same time

They can't even agree on who suggested it first, 🤦🏽‍♀️
but they couldn't agree to coordinate anyway

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-mail-on-sunday/20180715/281573766467976

DGRossetti · 16/07/2018 17:45

Time to note that it seems Brexit became quite a mans game early on ....

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 17:45

Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor
Anna Soubry: "The only reason the Government has accepted these amendments is because it's frightened of something in the region of 40 MPs - the hard, no deal Brexiteers who should have been seen off some time ago."

Robert Peston @Peston
@AnnaSoubry "who is running Britain, the prime minister or the hon member for north east Somerset {@JacobRees_Mogg]?"

A reference to LINO (leader in name only) that the ERG are trying to push.

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Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 17:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 17:46

Jason Groves @JasonGroves1
Parliament to break up early for the summer on Thursday. Was due to be a week tomorrow, but No 10 pushing for early finish and Labour (apparently) not pushing back

WTF?!

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lonelyplanetmum · 16/07/2018 17:48

It's probably too slow and too little but a penny seems to be dropping ...

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 17:53

As far as I can see, the 4 ERG amendments reduce the possibilities to no deal or Norway

illegal to have border infrastructure in Ireland + illegal to have a border in the Irish Sea. If it is also illegal to have a separate customs territory in N Ireland
==> no NI backstop is possible

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 17:54

I might be wrong here, but this might be the point at which May would be happy for parliament to vote against government supported amendments.

If Labour vote for them and there are enough tories who abstain against them, if LINO is a thing, it hurts Mogg more than May.

I could be wrong, but I wonder if others might make that calculation.

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 17:59

Chris Leslie now going on about how the Turd Way plans go against WTO rules by treating imported goods differently to domestic goods. Amongst other rule breaks.

(I also wonder if the Cabinet Office who drew up the Turd Way knew this. Its possible they did and knew this was an area which would HAVE to be compromised on)

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Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 18:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 18:12

Kevin Schofield @ polhomeeditor
BREAKING: Labour MP Chuka Umunna says party's treatment of Jewish community meets the Macpherson report's definition of institutional racism. He says: "Part of the reason I joined the party was because I believed it to be anti-racist, which is why this horrifies me."

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 18:23

Faisal Islam @ faisalislam
^this is one of the Rees Mogg amendments accepted - it makes “unlawful” for HMRC to do what was official government policy as set out on Thursday and agreed at Chequers by Cabinet,
unless EU also collects tariffs for UK, which was not mentioned in either last week. Incredible.^

“no way it can be tidied up in Lords as a money bill” says one Opposition source anticipating Speaker certification in this way

phoned up by middle ground Tory MP:
“This is a s**tshow” - reports prominent PPS still in Government ringing around as alternative whip for ERG amendments... says Remainer MPs will now (today or tomorrow) push for full customs union to remind ERG of “mutually assured destruction”

.. also says Tory constituencies have seen a spike in membership applications - 100 x £25 - suspects an organised effort by someone anticipating speedy leadership contest

My guess would be that it would be an influx of former Kippers wanting to vote for JRM or BJ, but by all accounts Nick Clegg in his book also encouraged Libs to become Tory members for opposite purpose.

Heidi Allen @ Heidi Allen75
I will never give ERG my backing so will vote against their 2 wrecking amdts which fundamentally undermine the Chequers proposal & our PM. Will abstain on NC37 (NI no hard border as already secured in GRBill) & 72(Act of Parl reqd for a CU, see tomorrow)

Faisal Islam @ faisalislam
Counter rebellion 2 PM “caving in” by allowing White Paper to be “wrecked” by Brexiters and Rees Mogg “running Britain” says Soubry

Anna Soubry @ anna_soubry
I’ll be with you Heidi. Having made great strides with her #Brexit #WhitePaper to meet the needs of business, the PM has allowed it to be wrecked by caving in to the hard no deal Brexiteers. Seems Jacob Rees Mogg is running Britain.

Soubry HAS rebelled. Not every time but she has.

Given her anger, hard to see her being persuaded to the contrary.

We shall see.

I don't see how ERG amendments will get through the Lords either

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