Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
KennDodd · 16/07/2018 20:09

So, what do you wise people predict will happen over the next year?

Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 20:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mathanxiety · 16/07/2018 20:11

Wrt why anyone in Labour would vote for anything the Tories wanted, the answer is that English nationalism is the opium of the people.

woman11017 · 16/07/2018 20:14

Labour MPs overwhelmingly pass motion calling on the party to adopt the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of anti-Semitism.
This is good news.

frumpety · 16/07/2018 20:21

I maintain my prediction that Brexit isn't going to happen Ken , the others on here verbally pat me on the head when I say it , but I don't see anything other than a gigantic stonking patriotic U-turn coming. I am long overdue an eye test though Grin

Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 20:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 20:23

Robert Peston @Peston
If ERG amendment goes to a division. & it looks likely, we could see spectacular embarrassment for government: having surrendered to rebel Brexiters of ERG & adopted ERG amendments as its own, it would be amazing if those amendments were lost because of Tory Remainer rebellion!

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
So: Govt could lose a vote on an amendment that they have only just been forced to accept. But does this make Theresa May, 1. happy, 2. sad, or 3. finally go round the bend?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 20:43

Alex Wickham @WikiGuido
Labour source on govt plan to break parliament up early: "It is staggering that the Tories are in such a state they are considering just packing up and going home. Theresa May is running scared of her own MPs.”

OP posts:
woman11017 · 16/07/2018 20:49

Theresa May plans early summer break for MPs to 'avoid a leadership challenge
Move would kill off attempt by hard Brexit-supporting Tories to force an immediate vote of no confidence
MPs are expected to pass a motion on Tuesday to bring forward their six-week recess, so they would leave Westminster on Thursday – instead of next Tuesday
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-mp-summer-break-brexit-conservative-leadership-challenge-westminster-tories-a8450241.html

54321go · 16/07/2018 20:56

If I were an EU leader I would wait until the UK gov have gone off for a week then have a week long air traffic control and dock workers (ferries) strike. Simulate a (fairly) hard Brexit.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 21:03

Labour Whips @ labourwhips
Public Service Announcement. We expect seven divisions from 9pm:
1 - NC 11
2 - NC 13
3 - NC 16
4 - NC 36
5 - Amdt 21
6 - Amdt 73
7 - Third Reading

Brief explanation:

1 - NC 11 - Lab ‘a Customs Union’
2 - NC 13 - Lab parly scrutiny
3 - NC 16 - SNP
4 - NC 36 - ERG Amdt on FACA / CU
5 - Amdt 21 - Lab Action on dumping
6 - Amdt 73 - ERG on VAT
7 - Third Reading

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 21:06

BBC Parliament @ bbcparliament
MPs are voting on New Clause 11 as report stage of the Customs bill wraps up. This is an Opposition amendt - remember, takes about 15 mins for results to come through.

They are about 15 mins per division. I think.
So about an hour til the 1st ERG one?

OP posts:
Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 21:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mrsr8 · 16/07/2018 21:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

keyboardkate · 16/07/2018 21:13

And they are coming back from their comfort break, full house soon, now for the drama.

www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/3f0453f3-e04d-403b-b749-9f0bf005cceb

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 21:13

Peter Foster @ pmdfoster
An addendum.

FWIW EU sources clear that Rees-Mogg amendments/ascendancy of hard Brexiteers make them more, not less, inclined to demand an NI-only backstop.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 16/07/2018 21:18

An eyebrow raised as high as it can go from me at Paul Ryan talking about any aspect of morality - he wouldn't know what morality was if it jumped up and bit him in the butt.

The faux horror about Trump costing up to Russia is equally as laughable as the idea he implies that the US can hold its head high after 70 plus years of illegal interference in the affairs of other countries: depositions of elected leaders, installation of and support for brutal dictators, and destruction of civil society in Central and South American states by means of the 'war on drugs'.

And a massive raspberry to that other charlatan mentioned here, Sammy Wilson. If you're reading this, Sammy, allow me to remind you that NI voted to remain, you gobshite.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 21:29

Sam Coates Times @ samcoatestimes
Only 605 MPs out of 650 MPs voted in the first of tonight’s division. That suggests significant absences reducing chance of gvt defeat without massive Tory remainer rebellion

OP posts:
woman11017 · 16/07/2018 21:31

@faisalislam
It’s official: Government tables Adjournment (Summer) motion to starts Commons recess four days earlier than anticipated this Thursday. Which narrows window for potential rebellion/awkwardness...

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 21:31

Uk House of Commons @ houseofcommons
House of Commons votes against New Clause 13 of the #CrossBorderTaxBill by 316 to 291.

OP posts:
PineappleSunrise · 16/07/2018 21:31

Labour MPs overwhelmingly pass motion calling on the party to adopt the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of anti-Semitism.

Thank God for that. I was staring to wonder if there was a properly progressive aspect to Labour left at all.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 21:55

David Henig @ davidheniguk
The Commons is now proposed to sit for only 10 days between now and October 8. At risk of stating the obvious this is a Government sending MPs away to prevent humiliation, and hang the interests of the country
Sorry UK businesses, EU citizens in the UK, UK citizens in the EU, the UK Government has decided that the PM's certainty of retaining office is more important than your certainty of being able to plan ahead

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 21:56

Laura Kuennsberg @ bbclaurak
Just while we wait, rumour Guto Bebb has apparently just voted against govt, by default quitting his govt job

OP posts:
woman11017 · 16/07/2018 22:00
Sad
OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 16/07/2018 22:00

@Peston
So Rebel Remainers join forces with Labour but don't quite kill a government backed ERG Brexiter amendment. Government and ERG win by a slim 3 votes. But minister Bebb votes with rebels and resigns from government

Swipe left for the next trending thread