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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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prettybird · 18/07/2018 15:02

Boris now on his feet. Hmm

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 18/07/2018 15:08

There is quite an optimistic article in the FT (another straw to clutch!) - title “Theresa May’s Brexit model is alive and kicking”. I’ve tried to create a link but it keeps diverting to the paywall Sad

prettybird · 18/07/2018 15:11

Boris' speech in a nutshell. "The Rise of Empire 2.0" ..... "millions if not billions around the world want the UK to take its place in the world again"

Leaves the House immediately after making his speech. Hmm

Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 15:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 15:16

Faisal Islam @ faisalislam
From soundings I have taken, don’t rule out Lords emboldened to reject whole Bill at 2nd Reading on account of tight margin, none votes on highly consequential amendments (NI backstop), & argument about whether Salisbury Convention applies to minority gov
I haven’t been able to confirm, but the very act of adding the ERG policy amendments may have moved this from Money Bill to Supply Bill. IF lords rejected second reading on 4/9 would be v v rare & cause constitutional upheaval - but we’re already on that rollercoaster.

Johnson speech "I liked it when May said things I liked. I like it less when the reality of negotiations have kicked in. Therefore I will ignore reality cos it doesn't fit my ideological position".

He said we had 2 and a half years to set up arrangements on the NI border. Except we don't if there is no transition period. No deal and no backstop means no transition.

Maybe there is also something in that though. If we crash out with no deal, what he said is bollocks.

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lonelyplanetmum · 18/07/2018 15:17

world want the UK to take its place in the world again

FFS. The buffoon piffled.

•We had a leading place at the table of The leading world economic organisation. We walked away.

•We had a leading place as the 5th strongest world economy. We walked away.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 15:25

"millions if not billions around the world want the UK to take its place in the world again"

In my mind

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 15:50

Hugo Gye @HugoGye
I'm told this is the longlist to be the Tory candidate for mayor of London:

Shaun Bailey
Andrew Boff
Duwayne Brooks
Alison Cork
Kevin Davis
Simone Finn
Ruby McGregor-Smith
Joy Morrissey
Kulveer Ranger
Andrew Rosindell

No Justine Greening??

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 15:51

Robert Peston@Peston
@theresa_may says 70 "technical notices" for businesses and households will be published in Aug and Sept setting out how we can all prepare for a no-deal Brexit (should that be what happens). Yikes

Shortages and price rises start next month folks!

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 15:58

Anyone saying stockpiling is crazy will have to explain why the government is planning to give advice to HOUSEHOLDS.

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lonelyplanetmum · 18/07/2018 16:04

70 ?

Is that based the Schroedinger sectoral analyses that finally existed?

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 16:06

I'm surprised its only 70 tbh.

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TheElementsSong · 18/07/2018 16:08

Anyone saying stockpiling is crazy will have to explain why the government is planning to give advice to HOUSEHOLDS.

I'm tempted to start another round of asking Leavers to pledge not to prepare ^^

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 16:10

Re - How the Queen dresses check this out:

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/jul/18/was-the-queen-sending-coded-messages-to-donald-trump-via-her-brooches-absolutely?CMP=twt_gu
Was the Queen sending coded messages to Donald Trump via her brooches? Absolutely

Twitter user @SamuraiKnitter has pointed out that on the first day of the Trump visit, the Queen wore a simple green brooch that was given to her by the Obamas to signify their friendship. On the second day, she wore a brooch given to her by Canada, a country with which Trump is less than pleased at the moment (also, it was in the shape of a snowflake, a classic Trump term for people who disagree with him.) And, for the last day, she chose a brooch she wore to the funeral of her father, so not one associated with happiness and joy. Queen’s brooches: 3. Trump: 0.

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 16:12

Oh yes, I'd love to see if the contents of their cupboards after government advice to stockpile.

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ThisIsHistory · 18/07/2018 16:12

Off to the Co-op for corned beef and tinned salmon then. Plus Smash and Green Giant niblets. No point in stocking up on Angel Delight if milk is going to be a luxury though. So Evaporated Milk and Sterilized Cream it is.

Wait, that shopping list sounds like it’s the 1970s again. Oh wait, it is.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 16:13

Given it's hardly a new position, it's fascinating how both parties haven't a FUCKING CLUE about how Londoners think. It's less about party and more about person. Which is why Ken Livingstone romped home without any Labour backing. Even my DM voted for him. Not because she necessarily agreed with him, but because he was a Londoner. Not just that, a proud Londoner. Ditto BoJo. And even though it's been (too long) a while since I was a Londoner, I recognise Sadiq Khan as "one of us". I would have voted for him too.

Whoever a party puts up as candidate needs to be someone who Londoners recognise as a Londoner. And a Remainer.

I don't think it's a unique London thing. I doubt BoJo could have become Mayor of the West Midlands, even though it went to the Tory.

Pretty certain US cities are similar. Can't see a Texan becoming Mayor of New York.

lonelyplanetmum · 18/07/2018 16:14

Leavers to pledge not to prepare.

I know bitterness isn't an attractive quality.

I do think that those who ardent Brexiteers (for example a Mum I know who went around leafleting) should be prepared to make more of a sacrifice.

Some said they were prepared to lose their jobs etc, because any price would be worth it to "pull up the drawbridge" Now is their chance to follow through on that pledge surely.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 16:14

Conor James McKinney @mckinneytweets
Invests in tinned goods

How long have we got before this starts to get circlated seriously and widely.

(Best before dates for loads of stuff aren't after March 2019 yet...)

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 16:15

FOR SALE. ONE SPORTS STADIUM.

David Conn @david_conn
Commons Wembley hearing: Sports minister Crouch indicating her support (which is needed) for FA's sale of Wembley if protections for stadium are there.

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 16:17

CNN @CNN
Former President Barack Obama is urging more women to get involved in social movements and governance "because men have been getting on my nerves recently."

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DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 16:19

Mind you, a return to imperial, and old money might help the economy, as no one knows how much anything is worth any more.

(There is a certain cruel pleasure in taunting arch Brexiteers about their lack of knowledge of life before the EEC).

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 16:19

I liked Obamas Mandela speech yesterday too ....

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 16:22

Kirsty Hughes @KirstyS_Hughes
EU negotiators label white paper cherry-picking (no surprise) - emergency summit apparently pencilled in for early November

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/eu-assault-on-mays-white-paper-heightens-no-deal-brexit-fears?CMP=share_btn_tw
EU assault on May's white paper heightens 'no deal' Brexit fears

Europe’s officials lay into PM’s plan, with top diplomat saying it will not be basis of talks

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 16:23

Led by Michel Barnier’s deputy, Sabine Weyand, the EU’s team of officials picked apart the most contentious parts of the paper as it was presented by Olly Robbins, Theresa May’s chief Brexit adviser, leading to increased concerns on both sides that a no-deal scenario is moving from possible to likely.

“The white paper is not going to form the basis of the negotiations,” one senior EU diplomat told the Guardian. British government sources, in the wake of the latest talks, admitted growing despair over what they regard as the intransigence of their EU counterparts

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