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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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Thread gallery
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GaspodeWonderCat · 18/07/2018 13:23

BoJo taking up Telegraph post is against rules (supposed to wait 3 months after leaving post). Why isn't he being sanctioned/expelled ? news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-breached-ministerial-code-with-telegraph-column-return-11439710

Can we start a list of all MPs who have broken the rules and get them all sanctioned/expelled? (Hopeful Grin)

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 13:29

Sinn Fein are republicans. Even if the Queen weren't British, they wouldn't swear allegiance to any monarch.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 13:30

Paul Waugh @paulwaugh
Corbyn spokesman on idea of Govt of National Unity:"The Labour party would have nothing to do with some kind of establishment stitch up to deny a proper voice for our voters"

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Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 13:34

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 13:38

PARLY @ParlyApp
Less than 10 MPs want to take part in this UQ on Northern Ireland- business moving more quickly than expected

NI gets less attention and time than Boris Johnson's ego.

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smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 13:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 13:39

The very MPs and (former) ministers who nodded along with the government "not revealing its hand" when they thought lack-of-transparency suited them.

So more hypocrisy again.
Or they showing themselves for what they really are - politicians only interested in their own personal gain. Not the good of the country.

BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 13:40

The Labour party would have nothing to do with some kind of establishment stitch up to deny a proper voice for our voters"

So I’m assuming that loosing 8% GPD and having 3 millions more unemployed people isn’t stiching up tenir voters then

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 13:43

The Labour party would have nothing to do with some kind of establishment stitch up to deny a proper voice for our voters

e.r. Kate Hoey ? All those votes with the government.

Sorry, Corbyn is so full of shit now.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 13:54

Meanwhile, a start illustration of why the US hates the EU.

Any Brexiteers care to tell us how "Uk solo" would have dealt with Google. My guess is "not at all".

www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/18/european_commission_fines_google_over_android/

...
Today, Europe's competition commissioner, Margrethe Vestager, fined Google €4.34bn (£5bn) for using Android to strengthen its search monopoly. It has 90 days to mend its way or face further penalties of up to 5 per cent of the average daily worldwide turnover of parent firm Alphabet.

(contd).

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 13:56

Ian Austin @IanAustinMP
Imagine if Jeremy and his team were as quick to take action against the people RESPONSIBLE for racism as they are with the people COMPLAINING about it.

Re Margaret Hodge disciplinary.

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 14:08

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
David Davis asks PM to publish DEXEEU draft free trade deal.....

Another point about this: DexEu has refused more FOI requests than any other department by some distance.

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BigChocFrenzy · 18/07/2018 14:09

Ian Paisley Jr (DUP) in danger of being forced to stand down as an MP and face a by-election
after being found to have breached parliamentary rules.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44869627

The MP faces a 30-day suspension after he failed to declare the details of two family holidays in 2013 paid for by the Sri Lankan government.
...
The 30-day ban, if accepted, could trigger a Recall Petition by which an MP can lose their seat if 10% of the eligible electorate in their constituency signs a petition.
...
Under the Recall of MPs Act, which came into effect in 2016,

MPs who are convicted of a criminal offence and jailed,
barred from the House of Commons for 10 sitting days < this is his danger >
or convicted of providing false information on allowance claims

can lose their seat if there is a successful petition to recall them.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 14:09

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
I’m told the media were briefed that “action will be taken” against Margaret Hodge before Margaret Hodge was told

OUCH

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Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 14:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 14:15

HuffPost UK @HuffPostUK
BREAKING: Grenfell detectives conduct three interviews under caution

Want to bet that this story is the one May got a message about during PQT????

Who is now the big question...

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 14:15

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/grenfell-detectives_uk_5b4f3b8fe4b0b15aba8a5cd9?ncid=tweetlnkukhpmg00000001
Grenfell Detectives Conduct Three Interviews Under Caution

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 14:18

Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor
Jeremy Corbyn has missed six of the last seven meetings of Labour's parliamentary committee, which is made up of MPs from across the country and is meant to provide him with feedback on their concerns. Relations between the leader and his backbenchers very bad right now.

Do you remember the times articles about how HQ microtargetted JC through Facebook?

How is Corbyn staying in touch, and ensuring he isn't in an echo chamber?

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 14:35

George Trefgarne @GeorgeTrefgarne
Hilarious, nobody in chamber to hear @BorisJohnson resignation speech, whips clearly trying to mess the whole thing up. Like Disraeli's maiden speech: "I sit down now but there will come a time when you shall hear me."

Sienna Rodgers @siennamarla
I'm told Kate Hoey has now said she will not attend her next local Labour meeting, which will debate a motion calling for her suspension and ineligibility for reselection.
Full text of motion going to Vauxhall GC next week:

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work
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DrMantisToboggan · 18/07/2018 14:36

The 30-day ban, if accepted, could trigger a Recall Petition by which an MP can lose their seat if 10% of the eligible electorate in their constituency signs a petition.

Paisley Jr has an absolutely massive majority. He’s pretty much unassailable in North Antrim. Not sure if the other parties would think it worth the time and expense.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 14:38

Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor
Meanwhile, Labour say the four Brexit-backing MPs who saved the Government from collapse last night will be dealt by party whips "in the normal way".

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Tanith · 18/07/2018 14:47

I think the Toxteth riots AKA What Happens When You Leave a Community To Rot In Poverty are more in line with the current situation.
People focussed on the racial aspect because of Brixton, but it was so much more than that.

www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/sep/14/toxteth-riots-1981-summer-liverpool-burned-patrick-minford-jimi-jagne

All it needs is that one little spark...

I think SF might be induced to vote if it means wrecking the Conservatives and their Government.
However, they may feel that the Government are achieving that nicely all by themselves and uniting Ireland in the process, in which case they’ll just sit tight and watch the fun.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 14:56

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
Customs Bill not certified by Speaker as a “Money Bill” but as a “Supply Bill” - subtle difference is that House of Lords can reject whole Bill at second reading, whereas as a Money Bill would have automatically become law after a month
But Lords can’t amend only reject in Sept

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lonelyplanetmum · 18/07/2018 14:58

House of Lords can reject whole Bill at second reading,
^
Yay a straw for today!^

BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 15:02

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anna-soubry-jacob-rees-mogg-theresa-may-customs-union-tory-conservative-brexiteers-a8452231.html

Anna Soubry says Jacob Rees-Mogg is now “running our country”, warning Theresa May is no longer “in charge” after caving in to Brexit hardliners in key Commons votes.
Yep that’s about right.