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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 17:39

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 17:40

The Irish Border @BorderIrish
Friends, I don't want to be immodest, but I would like to note that the former Secretary of State acknowledges in his resignation speech that I have buggered up Brexit for him. I'd like to thank him for his honesty in saying so. It's unborderly to gloat but hahahahahahaha

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EmilyAlice · 18/07/2018 17:42

I think the leaflets are a good idea. Should concentrate the mind of the consciously unconscious.
I shall be bringing cassoulet and wine over to England for Dd. Having lived in France for 14 years I shall also be bringing back Stilton, Red Leicester and Double Gloucester while I can.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 17:42

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/18/jeremy-corbyn-labour-antisemitism-margaret-hodge?CMP=share_btn_tw
I was right to confront Jeremy Corbyn over Labour’s antisemitism
Margaret Hodge

Unrepentant.

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 17:46

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-is-britain-turning-blind-eye-to-leave-side-s-lawbreaking-1.3568256

Why is Britain turning blind eye to Leave side’s lawbreaking?
Illegal fund activity linked to Brexit being ignored in belief ‘the people have spoken’

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BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 17:47

I’m looking forward to listen to Leavers saying they knew all along they Brexit meant stockpiling food too (and that they started a long time ago)

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 17:50

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GaspodeWonderCat · 18/07/2018 17:51

Loo roll etc have no sell by date and I am stocking up on them as I definitely do not want to get caught short (feeble joke worthy of DGR?).

OlennasWimple · 18/07/2018 17:52

As pp have said, if the oath of allegiance was the only sticking point to SF taking their seats then it would have been resolved by now. There are plenty of republicans - including Corbyn - who have found ways to square that circle.

Never mind the seven seals, if we ever see seven SF MPs taking their seats in the HofC then we shall truly know that the end of days is upon us

Icantreachthepretzels · 18/07/2018 17:56

It’s getting VERY scary of the government is now asking households to stock pile
But ... I don't get it. This isn't a war situation. This is something completely VOLUNTARY that we are doing to OURSELVES. When it gets to the point of the govt telling us we need to stockpile food because we are VOLUNTARILY choosing to cut off our food supply... why the hell don't they just go 'nah - we gave it a go, not gonna work' ?

They're acting like this is like the run up to the second world war but it just isn't. They could stop this at any minute simply by ringing the EU and admitting they were wrong.

I mean don't get me wrong - stockpiling begun weeks ago at mine ... but if a first world govt in the 21st century are having to tell their people to stockpile food - in time for a specific date because they know when the catastrophe will hit and they COULD stop it, but they're not doing, then that govt has FAILED. They need to stop what they are doing and change policy or await their treason trial.

This isn't even like prepping for a natural disaster or expecting a famine - where they don't know where/when/ how long it will last and they might make the wrong decisions or give what turns out to be bad advice because they don't know the future. They have all the facts. They are choosing to do this. They have the date when it will happen. And instead of pulling back and putting a stop to it... they send out leaflets telling people to stockpile? Because they think the will of the people included going hungry? Because they are just point blank admitting that the govt is run by Russia and a few disaster capitalists? What the actual fuck?

I think this has to be the most batshit thing that has ever happened in the history of the world. If you have got time to tell people to stockpile then you've got time to stop the event that will cause the need for stockpiling.
Food scarcity should NEVER be an option that a govt should embrace - or even put on the table (so to speak).

ONE PHONE CALL... that is all this would take to make it go away forever ONE PHONE CALL 'I'm sorry Mr. Barnier - we've been complete and utter dicks, can we change our minds please?'
'but of course, mon ami - welcome home.'
ONE FUCKING PHONE CALL.

No wonder people don't believe this will happen, it's just so fucking ludicrous. It is inconceivable that a govt could do this simply for fear of changing their minds. No wonder we sound like crazy people when we try to explain what's going on... because the situation is INSANE. No one would believe it if they weren't following it.... hence why so many don't.
And hence why it will probably happen.

I will be very interested to hear what my sister's leave voting boyfriend (I've told her to LTB) and my parent's leave voting neighbour (who voted so his son could have a better future - not his TWO daughters mind - just his son) have to say when they get the stockpiling leaflet through. I wonder how they will spin that into worth the pain/ we knew what we voted for/ this is the fault of remainers.
They had better not stockpile - they had better have faith in the glorious future they voted for. And we sure as hell won't be sharing!
The more I think about it - the angrier I get. It's the leaflets. They've tipped me over the edge. If the govt were just clueless I would simply be angry. But KNOWING they know what will happen - are asking people to take steps, but not themselves taking the step to avoid it completely ... I'm fucking INCANDESCENT with rage.

ThisIsHistory · 18/07/2018 18:04

Dusting off Robert Carrier’s Great Dishes of the World for The Emergency Shelf section.

Hoping I don’t have to go as far back as Marguerite Patten. Fingers crossed.

PM me if you fancy a foray into food smuggling...

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 18:07

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 18:08

I need a bike before Brexit don't I?

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smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 18:12

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 18:14

Harry Cole @MrHarryCole
Cabinet Minister leaves 22 says “they’re coming to their senses”.

James Forsyth @JGForsyth
Bit of theatre at the 1922 Committee as Simon Clarke, who had written a letter calling for a vote of no confidence in Theresa May, withdrew this letter saying May deserved a chance to negotiate

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CaptainBrickbeard · 18/07/2018 18:22

If the government actually do send out leaflets telling people to stockpile food and baby formula and prepare for fuel shortages there will be absolute outrage. There are very few diehard Leavers who would bluster that one out. I think it would end Brexit. So I really hope that’s what these 70 notices will comprise! Sure, there will be determined efforts to write it off as Project Fear but most people waking up to that on their doormat will say ‘fuck Brexit’. People are not going to tolerate food shortages.

Tanith · 18/07/2018 18:29

"Loo roll etc have no sell by date and I am stocking up on them as I definitely do not want to get caught short (feeble joke worthy of DGR?)."

Ah, now my granny used to tell me how they would cut up newspapers years ago. Pinking shears if they expected visitors Grin.
Perhaps we'll see a resurgence in print newspapers? I hope they do something about the ink if so!

Tanith · 18/07/2018 18:32

I think most people have noticed prices shooting up for a while now. What's new is the depleted shelves, in my area at any rate.

We're told they're short staffed and can't get anyone to stock the shelves Hmm

20nil · 18/07/2018 18:34

Leaflets a good idea. The sooner reality is made clear, the better.
My European granny told me the thing she missed most during WWII was toothpaste. The family was hungry most of the time but not being able to keep clean was the most demoralising for her.

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 18/07/2018 18:39

Leaflets may be a cunning plan to turn public opinion against hard Brexit??

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 18:49

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BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 18:55

Actually i think they will tell people to stockpile.
They will do it the way they’ve done everything so far.
First some small announcement in the press. A No Deal will create issues in the short term, borders etc
Then we talk about it a bit more and a bit more. By that time, it’s getting more of a reality and acceptable. The ‘well that’s likely to happen then’.
By the time the leaflets will go out, people,will know and be used to the idea. The leaflets will just confirm that.

If you read on MN, the idea that dairy will be a luxury is already accepted for example.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 18/07/2018 19:20

No leaflets please. Let diligent remainers stock pile food on the quiet.

The government referendum leaflet was treated with contempt by leavers. No reason why a stock piling leaflet would be any different - project fear, establishment stitch up etc.

Pro Brexit papers covered the stock piling story doesn't seem to have registered with leavers though.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 19:27

Ok folks, here it is:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3310556-Preppers-Paradise-Pickled-Turnips-and-Sovereignty-Spam?watched=1
A separate thread specifically for preppers, so we don't get too bogged down on here.

I think its a subject and story which is going to become an ongoing and important one and needs to be now taken seriously. It might focus a few minds to, if its not all contained in here.

Westministenders carries on in its own right (another page and a half ish until the new thread).

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borntobequiet · 18/07/2018 19:27

AIBU that the butter ration is insufficient?
MIL says I don’t know I’m born (yes deliberate poor pun on username there).