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Brexit

Westministenders: Simple Solutions for Complex Tasks Never Work

986 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2018 10:50

Time for some honesty: Simple Solutions for Complex Task Never Work.

There is a quote which I forget, which relates to authoritarian leaders, that is along the lines of being afraid of the man who offers you an easy solution.

This is the most basic thing of popularism.

What should worry you most is that EVERY politician in the UK is currently offering you this. Even the Remainers.

No one is up to the job. No one is really admitting the complexity of the task.

A People's Vote won't solve that. Its a 'solution' that might not even be possible at this stage due to the time it takes to set one up - which is lost from virtually all conversation. And even then, how the question is phrased is so unbeleivably contensious with parliament so divided its impossible to see how you could get them to agree to the wording.

Its arrogant to assume that remainers would win: there is still no honesty in the debate and the lies persist. Without being honesty in politics, any referendum is a car crash waiting to happen. Its Cameron's mistake and others are in danger of making it again.

The only purpose it may serve, is to start reframing the debate but that will only happen if there is a conscious decision by all to be more honest about the current state of play.

Even the thought that the only way out for politicians is to 'hand it back to the electorate' as they are too crap to sort it their internal squabbles is a nonsense.

The only way you could hand it back to the public in the time frame would be to trigger a General Election, and there is certainly no will to do that from the Tory Party and the numbers are not there to trigger it otherwise. Not that a General Election looks likely to create anything but another hung parliament and thus no way forward.

In terms of May's leadership, its difficult to see what happens next. With Remainers as well as Leavers torpedoing The Turd Way, its dead in the water. May has to go back to the drawing board. But there the alternative will have to align further either with one or the other group: and the EU will NEVER agree to a deal which is closer to the Brexiteer / Davis position.

May either has to go hard, and then compromise later with the EU. Probably to the point which is remainier than The Turd Way anyway or she has to go softer from the off, which would send the Brexiteers into a rage and trigger a leadership contest for certain. If May goes softer, there might be more inclination from Labour to agree to it and save her neck. But even then Labour tribalism runs so deep, its hard to see that happening either. They might promise it, then pull out, causing even more issues later on.

Whether she could survive a leadership contest is still open to debate. There are the numbers to trigger a contest. But to oust her? Don't know. And then there's the question of the alternative. Who steps up and who then answers the question of what the plan is and then how do they get the EU to agree to it?

All the while the clock is ticking.

There is virtually no time for anything now. Everything is up shit creek. The only thing that is likely is No Deal. And thats what the ERG want. They are happy just to cause trouble and obstruct everything from here on in.

But it is entirely possible that faced with that, the EU would agree to an article 50 extension. Provided we asked for one. Who would be brave enough.

If we want a deal and we want Brexit to be successful we HAVE to have an extension.

Otherwise the possibility of remaining also comes back into play.

I don't see a way out in any direction, apart from the death grip of the ERG dragging us all kicking and screaming over the cliff to absoluete chaos.

The ONLY way forward, is a massive swallowing of pride and reigning in of ego to a cross party solution AND compromising with the EU. That seems like a cake hope right now.

Remember the equation that will dominate the next few weeks:

Number of Con votes in 2017 - Number of votes for UKIP in 2015 = How much each Tory MP is shitting themselves about their job.

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RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 16:24

James Crisp @JamesCrisp6
EU diplomat pulls no punches after Boris speech.

"George Orwell, a far superior journalist to Boris, once wrote it was the same in all wars. The soldiers do the fighting, the journalists do the shouting and no true patriot gets near a front line trench. 1/

"Boris plays the patriot but he won't have to be in trenches or face the consequences of his flippant dismissal of the very real concerns over the Irish border. "

Ends

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prettybird · 18/07/2018 16:27

Compare and contrast Obama's articulate and thoughtful speech yesterday with President Bawbag's childish, repetitive witterings HmmSad

TheElementsSong · 18/07/2018 16:31

Actually what I'm finding very interesting about the recent spate of Brexit-related threads is the "new" Leave posters - to say that "their side" has won all these recent victories and their Sunlit Unicorns are nearly upon us, they seem uniformly irrational, vindictive, angry, hollow-slogan-tastic and absolutely desperate to point at even a hint of a squirrel.

SusanWalker · 18/07/2018 16:50

I have already started buying a few extra tins and have a mental list of what I want to have in. As someone said upthtead some things are too short a date at the moment. DS has autism, is a very fussy eater and cannot control his emotions when he is hungry. Leavers can fuck off if they think I'm overreacting.

I've had to replace my fridge freezer, washing machine and oven all in the last twelve months. I'm feeling this was serendipitous now. Although I might lack the electricity to run them on.

So we gone from sunlit uplands making us richer to the brexit version of protect and survive in two years. Well done Tory party. Well done.

ThisIsHistory · 18/07/2018 16:56

The sunlit uplands of Frey Bentos pies.

I wonder if they’ll bring out a Brexit Unicorn Pie in celebration

🇬🇧 🦄 🥧

Yum 🤮

Kofa · 18/07/2018 16:58

The first women elected to the HOC was a SF candidate in 1918. The policy back then was one of a abstention so they have been consistent. Interestingly, she is being honoured in the HOC today.

Constance Markievicz to be formally honoured at House of Commons today.
A portrait of the former Sinn Fein MP is set to be presented to the British Parliament later today.

www.thejournal.ie/constance-markievicz-portait-4133848-Jul2018/?utm_source=shortlink

THE UK’S PARLIAMENT will formally mark the election of Constance Markievicz to the House of Commons today.

Countess Markievicz was the first woman in history to be elected to the British Parliament following the 1918 general election, when Ireland was still part of the United Kingdom.

Her election followed the passing of the Parliament (Qualification of Women) Act 1918, which allowed all women over 21 to stand for Parliament.

A picture of Markievicz will be presented to the Speaker of the House of Commons, John Bercow by Ceann Comhairle Seán Ó Fearghaíl this afternoon to mark the centenary of her achievement.

The picture is a photographic reproduction of a 1901 oil painting of Markievicz owned by Dublin City Gallery The Hugh Lane.

It will go on public display in the British Parliament’s ‘Voice and Vote’ exhibition until 6 October, after which it will be transferred to Portcullis House for public display.

As a member of Sinn Féin, Markievicz never actually took her seat. The party abstained from attending the parliament in Westminster because it meant having to swear an oath to the British monarch.

She was one of many women who took part in the 1916 Rising, and was imprisoned and sentenced to death for her role in the Citizen Army.

Her sentence was commuted on the grounds of her sex, and she was released in 1917.

She was re-arrested and imprisoned the following year for her participation in nationalist activities in Ireland.

She was still imprisoned when elected to the House of Commons, and celebrated the historic win from her cell, where she received a letter from Downing Street inviting her to attend the state opening of parliament, addressed “Dear Sir…”.

Speaking in the House of Commons last year, British Prime Minister Theresa May said it was important to recognise the historic role that women have played in Westminster.

When asked for clarity on May’s comments by TheJournal.ie, the House of Commons said that whatever is said in the House is to be taken as it stands.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 16:59

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ThisIsHistory · 18/07/2018 17:02

I know, let’s have a modern day Dunkirk to ferry in the specialty cheeses

🌅
⛵️🚤🛥
🧀 🧀 🧀

It’s a gourmet floatilla!

That’s the Dunkirk spirit blighty is known for.

Kofa · 18/07/2018 17:03

Sorry know my post was not Brexit related, but I thought it was interesting in the context of the discussion on SF taking their seats.

ThisIsHistory · 18/07/2018 17:05

It’ll be spam in place of naice ham on the charcuterie boards next year smile

As a nation, we should never have gotten above our station in culinary matters. It was bound to end in tears (and spam fritters).

I love a bit of jamon.

SusanWalker · 18/07/2018 17:06

Conversation
Pete North
Pete North
@PeteNorth303
There is no point doing a thread deconstructing the Boris Johnson speech. The people who believe him are tribal and have no mind of their own. They are not responsive to information.

#Brexit

He's not wrong.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 17:06

As a nation, we should never have gotten above our station in culinary matters.

Is it axiomatic that few Quinoa purchasers voted Remain ?

Motheroffourdragons · 18/07/2018 17:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 18/07/2018 17:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 17:16

I have friends abroad...maybe we can start a black market cheese run?

That's how one of my DFs friends started in the late 60s. Wine, cheese, meats and various pastas and sauces from Tuscany to Sicily. Smuggling is such a strong word Grin, but I have a recollection that my DF was always getting cigarettes for his customers (he didn't smoke).

I bet that's the pre-EEC world Brexiteers never knew ...

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 17:20

Paul Waugh @ paulwaugh
PM being made to wait for some reason outside the 1922. Awks

Asked by @owenjbennett if she'll be watching Boris speech on catch up later, PM says she'll be 'doing my red box tonight'

Asked if she will survive the summer, May tells @business @kitty_donaldson "You know the answer to that".

Absolutely extraordinary that 1922 making PM wait as hacks ask questions.

Wow. A meeting of the 1922 committee she is excluded from (backbenchers independent from pm so not so weird) but to let her stand there and have to answer questions from journos which she clearly doesn't want and are awkward is something else. No one came to save her.

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DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 17:23

Was there some discussion of EHIC in parliament today ?

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 17:26

Cured meat such as chorizo is long life.

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BrexitWife · 18/07/2018 17:27

How long have we got before this starts to get circlated seriously and widely.

(Best before dates for loads of stuff aren't after March 2019 yet...)

Worth remembering food is still ok after the best before dates too.
Seems I have some shopping to do too then.

It’s getting VERY scary of the government is now asking households to stock pile.
Of course, we’ll forget that a lot of people won’t be able to :(

Mrsr8 · 18/07/2018 17:27

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 17:30

Cured meat such as chorizo is long life.

Well it's how our forbears preserved meat before refrigeration. It's meant to be long life.

Like cheeses with moulds to protect them.

And pickles. And chutneys.

But I'm sure Brexiteers are well prepared. Their determination to take us back in time can only spring from a deep understanding of the past, and it's ways. The ill educated soundbite spitting bullying is merely an act.

Cherrypi · 18/07/2018 17:33

I’m intrigued to read what’s in those leaflets. Telling everyone to stockpile food seems like a bad idea.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2018 17:35

I guess I should look up how to pickle stuff.

Mark Wallace @wallaceme
EXCLUSIVE: Conservative Association Chairmen have told me how yesterday's Downing Street charm offensive went, including their conference call with the Prime Minister
All sorts of fascinating detail (not least the high degree of persistent scepticism about Chequers even among the inner circle of Conservative activists) including the Prime Minister's plan to go "on tour" to sell Chequers this summer

www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/07/very-tense-a-sellout-inside-the-downing-street-charm-offensive-to-try-to-win-conservative-activists-support-for-chequers.html
“Very tense”, “a sellout” – Inside the Downing Street charm offensive to try to win Conservative activists’ support for Chequers

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DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 17:36

Telling everyone to stockpile food seems like a bad idea.

Not if you stand to make money from it. Then it seems like a Good Idea.

DGRossetti · 18/07/2018 17:39

including the Prime Minister's plan to go "on tour" to sell Chequers this summer

The V festival, Latitude, Reading (is it still going ?) "T" in the park (I'm sure someone in Conservative Central can do a banner with "T" for Theresa).

Probably bit of money in a remix too. "The Chequers plan feat. the Trump players"

Can't help but feel I should be taking this more seriously.