Westmistenders: 'No Deal please; We're British'

[RedToothBrush]

It has to be said that its almost as if Tory Rebels are too polite to challenge the PM.

But the stakes are getting higher and higher as it becomes more and more apparent that it is a clear choice between a chaotic no deal situation or a BINO and there is no alternative to that.

If the Tory Rebels don't show their grit and are not prepared to be as strong in their determination as the Brexiteers - out of almost politeness and obligation - then No Deal awaits.

As things move forward, the threat to May once again re-emerges too. If May doesn't do what the ERG say they are minded and will try to oust her. They have nothing to lose by it.

The Tory knives are hidden behind backs one again. Waiting.

Which way will the Withdrawal Bill go? Which way will the Trade Bill later this month go?

We are running out of time and options: for either a deal or no deal.

Time has already run out for many ordinary people - they just might not know that yet, but the decision has already be made about their future.

Thanks red

What a bunch of mimsy bastard quisling fucks

Place mat king

Remainers will still rather May was PM than one of the loons. So, they have to look like they support her until as late as possible. How late can the Tories really leave it before they go for a leadership challenge?

Thanks red
Searches for more

Aren't there more votes tomorrow?

@faisalislam
One rebel just told me if the Government reneges on the PMs personal assurances made this afternoon on meaningful vote - they will vote it down next week...

Does anybody know the timeframe/legal necessities for the “possibly agreed Grieve amendment clauses” becoming law - or not? How much time has TM bought herself by this?

Am I right in thinking that if the amendment doesn't go before the Lords next week contrary to the expectations of the Rebel Remainers, the Lords will kick it back again and we will be subjected to yet more headlines about traitorous unelected people trying to subvert the will of the people etc thereby making Mrs May look like she's one of us?

@StevePeers
I have a sense that this party is coming together
@bbclaurak
One of the Tory rebels told me earlier - 'if she f*ks us, she's f*ked'

Scooby-the amendments have to go into the Bill that returns to the H of L next week I think?

Do we know who the (almost) rebel MPs are? I'm curious about my MP

I'm reading this like this >

WTF is Theresa May playing at?

Thanks for the helpful summaries on this thread.

Parliament has begun to look like a primary school playground with all this whispering in corners and telling each side whatever they want to hear while Walter the Softy and his pals shout threats from behind the bike sheds. It's embarrassing to consider how other nations must view it.

Who is behind the scenes advising May? I don't believe she's got the imagination to keep playing people off against one another.

May hope she can play one off against the other until the crunch. Then in that moment she goes in for the kill with a deal that no one can object about as there is no time and the alternative is melt down.

The problem being two fold; she doesn't want melt down, just to drive it to the last second and the ERG Brexiteers want melt down.

It tends to favour the ERG as May hadn't counted on them being fanatics to the extent they are. It'll be easier to take us over the cliff unwittingly with the strategy she's taking.

Honestly though, she's reaching a point where neither side has nothing to lose, because they have totally lost trust in her.

If she really has just screwed one side, and it becomes obvious quickly, there's going to be a show down. Both sides have said tonight she's fucked if she has screwed them.

There is a reality here: she can afford to screw the ERG Brexiteers on Parliamentary numbers. The public are in line with a soft Brexit.

The problem for her is with the party faithful and kipper types. But who else do they vote for? If she ends up in a leadership contest that's a problem.

Remember: the numbers were enough to trigger a 1922 leadership challenge. The reason it's not been done is because they haven't had the numbers to defeat her in such a contest.

The lack of credible alternative has been one of the reasons no challenge has come so far too.

It's also why May has felt able to gamble playing the two groups off each other for so long.

If that's somehow changed, you'd expect to see leadership hopefuls taking big public steps forward, immediately before the trigger for a contest is pulled, as they test the waters in the press.

If I were a political journalist hoping for my summer holidays this year, I'd be cursing and wondering its all about to get cancelled.

For some reason I receive emails from Labour Leave. It must be to do with my ( past) support for Labour rather than the Leave part! Anyway I just received this email from them...

It was headed Shocking footage of Brexit treachery

" But [Lonelyplanetmum] today the House of Commons did pass an amendment to ensure they get a vote on the future relationship with the European Union. If the government doesn’t manage to get a deal (which is increasingly likely) then the House of Commons gets to have a vote on what happens next. This is a disaster and it will allow remainers to stop Brexit from happening in a meaningful way, it destroys the UK's leverage in negotiations."

Is Labour Leave sanctioned by the Party?
If so, it is beyond appalling for a political party to encourage the view that a Parliamentary vote is a disaster.Shocking.

Laura Kuennsberg @ bbclaurak
No 10 sources say agreement is for more discussions, with 'likely implication' of a new amendment - again, that's not what more than a dozen MPs believe the PM told them earlier tonight - three of them present told me the PM even said 'this is a matter of trust'... trouble ahead

www.thesun.co.uk/news/6514287/philip-lee-resign-brexit-theresa-may/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Five more pro-EU MPs may resign over PM’s Brexit policy – joining Philip Lee

We appear to have picked up an additional minister since the telegraph reported this, this afternoon and said four ministers.

Btw, we have not even touched on the Farage and the Russian Ambassador he never met but was photographed with. Not Arron Banks going to lunch. Nor the fact that the Lord's potentially could just refuse to agree to all these government amendments and refusals to consider the Lord's amendments and tell the government to go back and think again, if they were so inclined...

It's complicated enough, without that today.
SOAP definitely covers it!

Five more pro-EU MPs may resign over PM’s Brexit policy – joining Philip Lee
www.thesun.co.uk/news/6514287/philip-lee-resign-brexit-theresa-may/

Here's a screenshot of what Labour Leave sent me. It is Indistinguishable from what the ERG say.

It makes me feel there's no hope.

x post ^
lonely Is Labour Leave sanctioned by the Party? another line of questioning which went nowhere in the Banks/Wigmore/MP committee debacle was labour and leave funding.......

I am totally confused.

Woman mentioned "Some fantastic speeches from tories and SNP. ". Not a dicky bird about anything that Labour, who are after all the official opposition not that you'd know it

As far as I can surmise, from reading these threads, which was after hearing the news headline on BBC Radio Scotland that "Theresa May won against the rebels", is that May has kicked the can down the road yet again, "accepted" after saying she wouldn't Grieve's amendment (at least the majority of it) but essentially pushed it back to the HoL to formalise the "meaningful vote" (which allows the Express and the rabid Brexiteers to complain yet again about "unelected elites" despite these latest amendments being instigated/promised by the Government itself ) - and for this meaningful vote to be actioned after 30 November - which is a full 2 months after the deadline the EU has given the UK for a deal to be defined to allow time for the E27 to get it through all their own jurisdictions (because, you know , all 28 countries have never given up their sovereignty and still have a say in what happens in the EU).

So unless the EU allows an extension to A50 or for the UK to rescind it, we're currently on course to crash out without a deal, with or without parliamentary approval.

Is that a fair summary?

We're fucked

Place mat king

LonelyPlanetMum

I share your despair at that missive from the Labour party. As you say, if you didn't know otherwise, you'd have thought it was penned by Mogg.

Extreme left and extreme right united in a desire for chaos and upheaval. Their reasons may differ, but their ultimate aims are the same.

I keep trying to keep track of all the ramifications, but eventually my brain goes Tilt and all I can think is "It's just a total clusterfuck". Or just "Help!"

I am totally confused too.

pretty didn’t Grieve put the date (30/11) into the amendment? Why did he do that if (as you point out!) it’s too late?

Grieve is on Newsnight in a bit. Who knows, it may become clearer.

I just made the mistake of going on Leave.EU Facebook page (it pops up on my timeline from time to time as my Brexit voting family members keep sharing their posts).
Their video post of Arron Banks “running rings around remoaner witch hunt” from earlier today (or rather, the comments underneath) are quite frankly scary. Interesting how much of the language mirrors the language of Trump supporters (witch hunt! Etc). I wonder how many of those posters are Russian bots?