Westmistenders: 'No Deal please; We're British'

[RedToothBrush]

It has to be said that its almost as if Tory Rebels are too polite to challenge the PM.

But the stakes are getting higher and higher as it becomes more and more apparent that it is a clear choice between a chaotic no deal situation or a BINO and there is no alternative to that.

If the Tory Rebels don't show their grit and are not prepared to be as strong in their determination as the Brexiteers - out of almost politeness and obligation - then No Deal awaits.

As things move forward, the threat to May once again re-emerges too. If May doesn't do what the ERG say they are minded and will try to oust her. They have nothing to lose by it.

The Tory knives are hidden behind backs one again. Waiting.

Which way will the Withdrawal Bill go? Which way will the Trade Bill later this month go?

We are running out of time and options: for either a deal or no deal.

Time has already run out for many ordinary people - they just might not know that yet, but the decision has already be made about their future.

Not seen Newsnight for ages; since when has it been presented like a Soviet children's TV programme?

hasenstein

Clusterfuck.

Yes.

May the farce be with you

Could Theresa May & her minions have promised incompatible things to different groups ?

Possibly she did her usual obfuscating talk to each side without actually saying anything definite, to avoid outright lies
and at least one side - the rebels ? - were too respectful to request her to be specific.

All this would fall down if she ever has to promise things to everyone in a room together
The Party Conference this September should see her obfuscating on steroids:
45 mins talking / coughing / dodging falling signs without actually saying a damn thing

She really is surviving from hour to hour, very precariously
but only a fool or a complete narcissist - some Cabinet ministers are both - would want to be the PM to carry out this Dogs' Brexit

James Doleman @ jamesdoleman
Andy Wigmore says he met the Russian ambassador to discuss selling bananas from Belize.

In which we are no longer surprised, after the other events of the day, that we find ourselves as a couple in a situation where we are taken for fools by barefaced liars.

Could Theresa May & her minions have promised incompatible things to different groups ?

The answer to the above questions depends on whether you are Brexiteers or a Rebel.

The correct answer is of course 42

RTB

imo, the "leverage" over October that some in the UK thinks it had over the EU is fantasy:
a no-deal would damage both sides to some extent, but only one side is going over a cliff !

The EU is already planning worst case for a no-deal Brexit; the Uk can't.

I still haven't read that the EU would agree an A50 extension
So all that might be possible after a November rest might not even be BINO - insufficient time for approval - but Revoking A50

In case the Uk politicians & media haven't realised, the 2-year A50 time limit was intended to put any country leaving under time pressure to agree to a Withdrawal deal
i.e. it was intended to benefit the EU

The UK running out of time puts the UK under by far the most pressure - but it seems politicians & public alike are too thick to realise this

The correct answer is of course 42
42 makes a lot more sense than trying to figure it out too

Depressingly, Parliament not debating the detail of amendments during ping pong is standard procedure. Also, not accepting an amendment in favour of bringing forward something similar is completely standard (usually because of the risk of unintended consequences because the draft clause is not normally written by someone with the requisite legal drafting expertise)

However...can I be the first to claim that in the days immediately following the Brexit vote I suggested a x-party commission of some sort to take us through the leave negotiations? Which seems to be what we will end up with if we time out later in the year. Just call me Cassandra, eh

woman Aren't there more votes tomorrow?

According to my CommonsVotes app, there were 13 votes yesterday.
By my reckoning, that leaves one to be done. However, I am, like others, a bit confused, and could be wrong!

Some of the votes were very close. According to some sources, there are 17 rebels, so if they changed their minds, it would change the result.

It seems that Labour must have voted against the Govt. Although, a random selection (Amdmt 20) shows that two, Hoey and Stringer, voted with it.

Hey Mate, want some bananas?
Yes please I will get my man in customs to sort out the paperwork.
Job done, why does it need an ambassador?
Surely the 2 year time limit was in the 'small print' in 20+? languages ?
Maybe someone should have been looking at the idea of leaving BEFORE triggering article 50 or am I being too sensible here?
Even kids going on a picnic can work out they need to take sandwiches!

The BBC are reporting this version of yesterday's events it looks like a renege on any assumed deal with the rebels to me...

Brexit: Tory MPs set for 'concession' talks
Theresa May averted a Commons rebellion over plans to give MPs a "meaningful" say over a final Brexit deal with the EU.

Now Conservative MPs are to discuss in further detail what their role will be if no agreement is reached with Brussels by December. Some MPs say they were offered real "input", in a last-minute concession ahead of a key vote on the EU Withdrawal Bill.
But Solicitor General Robert Buckland argued that allowing Parliament to "instruct" the government on what to do in the event of no deal would leave the UK in "very rocky constitutional territory". BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg says there have been "very, very dark mutterings" from those who were "persuaded by what they thought was a promise.

How many deckchairs are there on this ship?
Nearly 2 years of 'rearrangement' and they haven't even started on the proper questions yet.
OK the iceberg may eventually be classed as 'illegal' but at the moment it is straight in front.

Today programme interview with the outgoing chairman of the CBI - Paul Dreschler. He sounded in despair. Spoke of the conflict between economics and political ideology. Said the if a business had a board at odds with itself in the way Govt is, would be a disaster, business would fail. TM needs to sort her Cabinet out.

The reason May can never 'sort it out' is that the unwritten constitution has dissolved in the acid of extremism.

@timoconnorbl
A note on happenings across the water of late.

I live and practice in a parliamentary democracy where a written Constitution is supreme. The UK is a system of Parliamentary supremacy (technically, the Crown in Parliament, but, lookit) without a written constitution.

And one may prefer one model over the other. I prefer ours, as it happens. But one may choose either, and the UK’s has, in fairness generally muddled along pretty okay.

But now?

In the last week or so, there’s been the UKSC deciding obiter dicta it knows better than legislators what the voters want; Parliament not supreme but bound by a referendum in a past parliament; Parliament deciding not to have a say over the executive but let it loose unfettered..

Oh, and people walking out of Parliamentary committees because they felt like it.

So, what system is it? Parliamentary supremacy? Judicial control? Executive control? One popular vote nearly two years ago that seemingly now binds all future parliaments?

I honestly do not know. I doubt anyone can say with true certainty. Scots constitutional lawyers are brawling like there was the last bottle of full-sugar Irn-Bru at stake over a Sewel convention that nobody is even sure is broken.

So far as I can tell, UK constitutional structures at the moment aren’t just mixed, they’re scrambled. Brexit is a universal solvent, and all the previous structures are crumbling and mingling in it.

And that cannot be a sustainable state of affairs.

Whatever happens with Brexit, the UK is going to have to clarify constitutional structures in a way it’s not done since the Home Rule crisis. The uncertainty, muddle and drift where nobody is truly sure who has what powers under what limits cannot continue.

Thing is, I’m uncertain on the evidence of the mess today there is the requisite appetite or expertise to carry out the exercise of picking one system, clarifying it and sticking with it. I am, however, certain Victorian theories aren’t descriptive of the reality any more.

So: who controls whatever may be eventually taken back?

I agree with this thread^: we have no written constitution to protect us.

Everything; our entire history of human rights, FOM, economic futures and constitutional status today depends on a verbal agreement with a flimsy PM and those who sought to vote against her yesterday.

This is not normal.

Maybe someone should have been looking at the idea of leaving BEFORE triggering article 50 or am I being too sensible here?

That was Theresa May ... all on her own. Despite the best efforts of others to stop her.

The one thing that can never be said is that triggering A50 was done by stealth.

Corbyn's Nationalist Socialists' vision gets a thumbs down from EU too.
uk.businessinsider.com/senior-eu-figures-rubbish-labours-single-market-brexit-policy-2018-6

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-44454250

A doctor stripped of his UK visa due to a late tax payment said the move had been a "disaster" for his family.

Dr Syed Kazmi was employed as a junior doctor at a hospital in Birmingham until January.

The medic's visa was refused, despite him paying the tax he owed. He returned to Pakistan, the country of his birth, and has since found work in Australia.

(contd)

Imagine if the colonials could read ?

I am firmly of the opinion that most Sun, Express and Mail readers really neither know nor care about the EU, despite the screaming headlines. Most like the CBI chairman are more interested in economics than politics. People whose main interest is putting food on the table, keeping a roof over their heads, wanting a decent school for their children and to see that elderly parents get good health care - none of which were primarily the responsibility of the EU .How do we change the narrative?

The Sun by its crass reporting on Hillsborough managed to get itself boycotted on Merseyside, so managed to get a negative image there - and Liverpool voted Remain, I recall.

The Olympics fostered a positive spirit in the general populace. How do we get people to realise that the EU is not the issue - failing Governments are the issue?

I personally begin to feel that this must be how it felt to live in say Estonia or East Germany under Communism, wondering when will this end, what can I do to stop it?

I am firmly of the opinion that most Sun, Express and Mail readers really neither know nor care about the EU, despite the screaming headlines.

Which is no sin.

What is a sin is that the same Sun, Express and Mail readers still know nothing about the EU ... deliberate ignorance. One of the worst forms of anti social behaviour going (if you ask me).

I personally begin to feel that this must be how it felt to live in say Estonia or East Germany under Communism, wondering when will this end, what can I do to stop it?

I don't think that's what they thought at all. Certainly if my families experiences under fascism are anything to go by. What they do think is "keep your head down. Don't rock the boat, and get by for another day."

Certainly if my families experiences under fascism are anything to go by
Yup, that sounds about right DGR And even those being targetted by the fascists choose not to see it. All out of the abusive relationship handbook. Life goes on.