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Brexit

Westmistenders: 'No Deal please; We're British'

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/06/2018 16:09

It has to be said that its almost as if Tory Rebels are too polite to challenge the PM.

But the stakes are getting higher and higher as it becomes more and more apparent that it is a clear choice between a chaotic no deal situation or a BINO and there is no alternative to that.

If the Tory Rebels don't show their grit and are not prepared to be as strong in their determination as the Brexiteers - out of almost politeness and obligation - then No Deal awaits.

As things move forward, the threat to May once again re-emerges too. If May doesn't do what the ERG say they are minded and will try to oust her. They have nothing to lose by it.

The Tory knives are hidden behind backs one again. Waiting.

Which way will the Withdrawal Bill go? Which way will the Trade Bill later this month go?

We are running out of time and options: for either a deal or no deal.

Time has already run out for many ordinary people - they just might not know that yet, but the decision has already be made about their future.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 12/06/2018 18:19

I hope the Uk is not - yet again - agonising and fighting over a course that would just be rejected by the EU

  • at a date when it is far too late for anything but a crash out Brexit

Did anyone bother to consult Barnier and get the nod ? Hmm

Or is the Uk assuming it's "special" again and can ignore what the other 27 countries think ?

Motheroffourdragons · 12/06/2018 18:31

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RedToothBrush · 12/06/2018 18:34

If it's any consolation, the ERG Brexiteers were at that point BEFORE the ref...

OP posts:
54321go · 12/06/2018 18:36

I have no idea either now so might order a box set of 'soap' and a load of bottles of alcohol and ignore the whole lot.

PissOffMauriel · 12/06/2018 18:40

Place marking

Icantreachthepretzels · 12/06/2018 18:41

Well the Daily Express is quiet at the moment - and they usually have reams of ridiculous brexit headlines. But currently the only brexit story of theirs that comes up under a google of 'brexit news' is a story about David Davis poking fun at Frank Fields before the vote... nice to see they've got to grips with the seriousness of what is happening today Hmm

Also they are running a story on Boris being in trouble over his bridge.

Not that they ever know what's going on - but right now - they clearly don't know what's going on. They should either be crowing in victory or gnashing their teeth in defeat. Instead they are just ...quiet.
If we can keep the right wing press in a state of perpetual confusion from now until October - we might be able to finally sway public opinion far enough towards remain. This is the first moment in months when the express hasn't been spewing out vitriol and hate. Confusion looks good on them.

lettuceWrap · 12/06/2018 18:52

Shameless place marking, thanks for the new thread RTB.

annandale · 12/06/2018 18:52

Remember remember the 30th November
Grieve's amendment and plot
I see no reason why ERG treason
Should ever be forgot

IrenetheQuaint · 12/06/2018 19:05

Baffled but pursuing ...

mrsreynolds · 12/06/2018 19:07

Nope....im lost

54321go · 12/06/2018 19:10

It should have been 5 November of course not 30th. Compulsory attendance at Westminster and lock them all in, only letting them out when there is proper agreement, like the pope and grey/white smoke.

Peregrina · 12/06/2018 19:22

Build a bonfire and put effigies of Gove, Johnson, Rees-Smug and Farage on the top.

TheElementsSong · 12/06/2018 19:25

Thanks for the new thread RTB - I’m very confused by today’s events.

Buteo · 12/06/2018 19:29

Build a bonfire and put effigies of Gove, Johnson, Rees-Smug and Farage on the top.

Might need to take a trip to Lewes for 5th November ...

SubtitlesOn · 12/06/2018 19:31

I have been watching most of the afternoon on BBC parliament channel

I said to DH that I was disappointed in the low numbers actually sitting there for the debate earlier

Most of them were playing on their phones while others were talking

Buteo · 12/06/2018 19:34

Iain Martin @iainmartin1

Commons on track now to take over last minute talks in Dec, keeping UK in CU and SM with free movement. Voters will have a range of views...

The moment in December when parliament takes over talks and the Commission says "that'll be £40bn plus £6bn a year and free movement" is going to be quite something. Well done everyone...

Buteo · 12/06/2018 19:38

James Rothwell @jameserothwell

Looks like MPs have waffled UK into a situation where:
a) No deal is to all intents & purposes dead
b) Leverage against EU virtually non-existent (though they doubted we'd walk)
c) EEA+ appears only way to square this circle
Therefore d) Urgent need for debate on free movement

woman11017 · 12/06/2018 19:38

@tnewtondunn
Finally, after 2 hours of silence from No10, a statement: DexEU spokesman: "We have not, and will not, agree to the House of Commons binding the Government's hands in the negotiations". Grieve et al thought the PM just had.

SwedishEdith · 12/06/2018 19:41

Place marking.

Dobby1sAFreeElf · 12/06/2018 19:43

Grieve et al thought the PM just had.
Grieve et al should have heeded Ken Clarke's advice.

Buteo · 12/06/2018 19:45

Faisal Islam @faisalislam

NEW: 15-20 Tory rebels were given a personal assurance by the Prime Minister in her Commons office ten minutes before voting started on accepting the thrust of the Grieve amendment and putting it in the bill in the Lords

RedToothBrush · 12/06/2018 19:46

Mrs Reynolds and any one else confused, a rough summary of today:

Today the Commons, had a debate about all the amendment the Lords voted for. No 10 was a bit worried about it, and Dr Lees scared the shit out of them with a surprise resignation, and something of a threat to the whips to take the Tory Rebels seriously. The rumour is there were 4 more junior ministers ready to go. If they did it would mean May would be in serious trouble - far more than David Davis and his threats, as May NEEDS the soft Leavers and Remainers to deliver a deal and stop the no deal cataclysm.

The debate was about ten minutes long and was really just little more than posturing rather than a debate. It was the usual suspects saying the usual things. It was completely pointless as there was no time to say anything anyway.

The Tory Rebels only had sufficient numbers to effectively oppose the meaningful vote amendment. Its about their own relevance, so I guess important. There wasn't much point in them opposing the other ones.

The other Lords Amendments might have had Rebel support, but it was pointless them supporting it if the numbers were not there. Better to prop up May and use the wisdom of knowing which battles to fight and all that

So the Meaningful vote became the only thing that matter. Dominic Grieve tried to help May with his own amendment, but the government refused to back it. However this wasn't enough for the Rebels, who went to the wire saying that they would vote against the government and support Grieve's new amendment instead. The Tory whips spent all afternoon running around trying to talk the Rebels out of it. In the end they had to make major concessions to the rebels - to the point that they should have just adopted Grieve's amendment then and there. But they decided they couldn't as it would make them look weak and sent the ERG lot mental. So we have this fudge where they agreed to stick an amendment in with the Lords next week, to the same effect to save face and stop May being defeated.

If it gets through the Lords (which is still an if - if the government don't table the amendment there will be trouble) then it in effect creates a safety net for stopping no deal.

The whips have told the Brexiteers they haven't promised all this, and there is a government source that is now saying that the government only promised to 'keep talking' (there are counters to this). Both the Rebels and the Brexiteers are claiming victory. Which means one has been stitched up somewhere.

Its something of a doubling the stakes. May has somewhat upped the anti once again.

Alex Wickham @WikiGuido
Senior brexiter: “If Theresa and Julian have sold us out here they are in real trouble. She reassured us all at the 1922. There is no way she can recover if she has now fucked us over.”
Government source: "Brexiteers have nothing to worry about. While the discussions will now continue, no concession has been made. Brexiteers have not been sold a pup."

Kevin Schofield @PolhomeEditor
Which means the Remainers have been. Trouble ahead.

Remember May needs the remainers/soft leavers numbers or she is toast. They are the ones keeping her as PM. Again if she screws them, they will view it as having little to lose if the alternative is 'no deal'. She will have out lived her usefulness.

Who she has screwed over is important. When they realise it, is important.

And its looking like it might be the Remainers:
Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Finally, after 2 hours of silence from No10, a statement: DexEU spokesman: "We have not, and will not, agree to the House of Commons binding the Government's hands in the negotiations". Grieve et al thought the PM just had.

The argument here, is that a safety net ends the EU's incentive to do a good deal with the UK in October. Thus we go to a situation beyond the 11th hour of the EU's deadline. Which tbh, I think most were already expecting, given that we haven't got a clue what we want yet.

We also still have amendments re: the EEA option to come tomorrow. Labour are opposed to this, but the Rebels think they have the number if Labour support them. Barnier has stepped in today and said that Labour's major argument to opposing the Lords amendment is pile of bullcrap. There is talk that Corbyn will have resignations tomorrow as a result.

We shall see.

The long and short of it, is that May keeps playing both sides off, to delay making the decision that will send one of them nuts. But everytime she does that she makes the situation more volatile.

The Trade Bill on the customs union later this month could be more of the same... of course if May screwed the Remainers now, they wouldn't let her again for that....

Its like chess. And I think May is slowly being check mated if you ask me, by painting herself into a corner...

OP posts:
lonelyplanetmum · 12/06/2018 19:51

My concern is that May just said what she needed to, in order to stave off the rebellion, then the amendment to require a motion in the Commons seeking approval on how the Government intends to proceed assuming , as is likely, no agreement may not make it back into the Bill.

But I guess If May tries to renege then the Bill can't make it into an Act anyway as the rebels could revive their rebellion if she doesn't keep her word.

WifeofDarth · 12/06/2018 19:56

Thanks Red , I think I understand it now Hmm The events of today will provide titles for history essays for many centuries ahead.
And May is still in the game. Amazing.

Motheroffourdragons · 12/06/2018 20:08

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