Custom Union

[user1486062886]

If as it looks likely the U.K. will be in some form of custom Union, what should us leave voters do?

Would it be better to stay as we are ?
Go on a protest march ( hasn’t helped remain )
Make the conservatives suffer at the next GE,
Or has anyone else got any suggestions ( no not you remainers, with just get on with it was a waste of time anyway etc etc)

OP isn't the only one crying about the UK doing the wrong kind of Brexit. Even Daniel Hannan is at it. Boo bloody hoo.

Two fingers

Little wonder leavers don’t engage - you are all so very sure of your moral high ground.

In your view the answer is any Brexit = bad. That is your starting premise and you will not shift.

Debating with such fixed and unshifting perspectives is tedious.

Exhibit a - I can admit that remainers have a valid point about reasons to stay (though I politely disagree) - yet fee of the militant remainers in such threads as these are willing to concede that 17 million leave voters may also have a valid point...

That is the difficulty - the intellectual intransigence

So, Heydug, nothing (again) to add to the debate that the OP was hoping to have? Just a few more insults...
In your view the answer is any Brexit = bad. That is your starting premise and you will not shift.
Show us the good side of Brexit and maybe we will. I would like nothing more than to see or hear something that convinced me that Brexit won't be all bad, but even the government's own impact assessments say it's going to be shit (although there are apparently degrees of exactly how shit we can expect it to be). Maybe you know otherwise. Maybe you know lots of ways in which Brexit will benefit the UK. Feel free to list them.

It’s not the case that no leavers can engage with remainers, I had a conversation with a leave voter on another thread who explained their reasons as I explained mine. We were never going to agree but it was a civil conversation.

Well that’s the thing - the leavers side is always being asked to justify itself. But the inconvenient thing is, we won the referendum.

So let me turn the question around - what is so good about staying in the eu? You’re answer cannot simply be that the technicalities of leaving make it difficult: that ignores what prompted a leave result in the first place. That isn’t a reason, that’s an excuse to belittle the referendum result on ‘stupid proles’ grounds

Why do you think we should stay? I am genuinely interested. Personally, had I voted remain it would have been to preserve economic stability (as opposed to love of eu membership as its own end) but I felt on balance, that was worth the risk to extricate us from a developing superstate.

So without telling me I am stupid (I am not) or radicalised by the daily mail (I’m not) what is it I’m missing?

I voted remain for economic stability, because in my opinion it wasn’t worth taking the chance because there wasn’t any real plan laid out. Or even the bones of a plan with intent.

I also voted remain because I don’t see the problem with immigration, that infrastructure is buckling under the pressure of immigration is (in my opinion) down to the U.K. government to ensure the infrastructure can cope given the many benefits to having a multi cultural society and the economic advantages of having a competitive job market. So, to me, making an already incompetent government solely responsible for the U.K. without the safety net of the EU made no sense.

The GFA was a big factor for me, I knew that to rip it up or even fiddle with it (which is what would have to happen for Leave to win the way they wanted) would be catastrophic for the people of NI and also for the UK.

I voted remain in part because I rejected the divisiveness of the Leave campaign, and the spearheads of the campaign are people I could never ally myself with.

So that’s why I voted the way I did.

See how I managed to explain that without insulting anyone’s intelligence or being aggressive? Try it.

Smeddum - I agree with you on the economic front. Brexit is a gamble in the sense it upsets a status quo (or perhaps not so much if we brino)

I must disagree on the question of immigration. In the East Midlands it has had a disproportionate impact upon normal folk and the traditional towns in which they live. That is not because immigrants are bad, it’s because immigration has happened in concentrated pockets. It has not benefited such communities

As to the good Friday agreement - if that entered your thought process at an early stage then fair play - it didn’t me I must confess. But - that doesn’t mean the gfa can be used to blackmail the leave vote away

Ultimately we presumably want the same thing - a safe prosperous nation

Magnanimous enough a post...? :)

I would pretty much echo smeddums comments.

It was never the case that the EU was the be all and end all but, on balance, given there wasn't, and still isn't any answers to the practicalities of actually leaving, remaining was the only option for me.

Added to that the fact I don't actually have any issues with being in the EU, I'm not aware of anything that has detrimentally affected me.

I've yet to hear anyone who has really been adversely affected on a day to day basis by being in the EU.

Yes there's stories about immigration and resources etc, but they are the fault of the government, not the EU.

Furthermore, the opportunities of being part of the worlds biggest trading bloc far outweigh any downside IMO.

Again, I've yet to hear Leaver tell us who we are going to wonderously start trading with outside the EU and why we couldn't before.

Bearbehind

I think the thing for me is that all opponents of Brexit have now unified behind issues of trade and mooted national economic ruin.

Yet they ignore questions like sovereignty and immigration which were some of the key leave drivers.

For most committed leavers it wasn’t about money, though I concede all of us will have a breaking point if it hits us in the wallet

Sovereignty has been discussed a million times i.e it was never lost.

Immigration has been explained as a need to fill labour shortages.

Yes, we are all going to be poorer, particularly leave voting areas.

Yet they ignore questions like sovereignty and immigration which were some of the key leave drivers.
That's because for a lot of Remainers they really are non-issues. What does sovereignty mean? For many leavers it seems to be "doing exactly what we want with no interference" because they see the EU as"other" not as something we shaped. It also seems to imagine that we can make decisions in a vacuum and never compromise or take anyone else into account - impossible of course. Moreover sovereignty seems only to be sought up to a certain point and when it is convenient- so not actually sovereignty at all.

Op, you asked me a while back in this thread what would be the best outcome for me. Apologies for not responding. The best outcome for me will be when I get my Irish passport and get one for my dd. Then she can take back the rights she has lost following Brexit. I now no longer care about what is best for anyone other than my family.

I must disagree on the question of immigration. In the East Midlands it has had a disproportionate impact upon normal folk and the traditional towns in which they live. That is not because immigrants are bad, it’s because immigration has happened in concentrated pockets. It has not benefited such communities

I don’t deny that, I just think that if the U.K. government had done more to alleviate pressure on vital services it could have avoided a lot of anger, and divisions. So I don’t deny there are areas where there are problems, I just think Brexit was a bit like mining the river to destroy a bridge.

As to the good Friday agreement - if that entered your thought process at an early stage then fair play - it didn’t me I must confess. But - that doesn’t mean the gfa can be used to blackmail the leave vote away

It’s not being used to blackmail anyone, that language is emotive and unhelpful. The fact is that it is an uneasy peace in NI, carefully brokered and adhered to, and any change to that could have catastrophic consequences for firstly the people of NI who don’t deserve to go back to the times they lived through before, and for the rest of the U.K. The fact it wasn’t considered by many is pretty depressing considering we’re touted as a United Kingdom.

What does sovereignty mean in practical terms?

I'm surprised some people don't realise what the EU actually is, and what it intends to become.

It is not a trading bloc. That's what we were told in 1973 (when the Tories took us in, with no mandate) and again in 1975 (Labour's referendum on staying members), but with every new 'treaty' that becomes less and less true. The EU is really an attempt to create a continent-wide superstate, something along the lines of a United States of Europe.

If you follow the direction of travel of the ECSC / EEC / EC / EU, it's plain what is going on. They are aiming for full political and economic union, and the reduction in status of current nation states to provinces.

As most of the citizens of the countries affected don't want this, it is being done by stealth and degrees with no democratic input. Don't for a moment think your MEP - who I bet you can't even name - has any political power. The EU 'Parliament' is a sham.

If we abandon Brexit now, quite apart from the humiliation of our democratic decision being overturned by a mixture of EU machinations and fifth columnists and anti-democrats at home, the price of re-admission will be to adopt the Euro, join Shengen and give up our rebate. For starters.

Read Varoufakis' book 'Adults in the room' if you really want to know what the EU is about - and it is certainly not the well-being of the peoples of Europe.

We are leaving because we don't want to end up as a gaggle of ahistoric offshore provinces of Greater Germany, ruled from Brussels by unelected, unaccountable, unsackable foreigners. If achieving that breaks a few eggs, so be it.

Wholly

Absolutely agree - you outline exactly what I see to be the sovereignty argument - those who argue we never lost it miss the point: the eu endstate will see us lose independence

To some that might not matter. To me it does

Thanks for explaining.
Genuine question though, what happens when it becomes that anyway and they all decide to make life even more difficult in terms of international relations, trade and military action?
That frightens me, and I’m curious as to what Leave voters think?

Smeddum - don’t understand your point - are you suggesting we become enemies of the eu?

Even I think that far fetched if that’s what you mean?

Why ask the question, if it is not achievable, that just makes no sense.

That's actually a very good point, a discussion of which would go to the heart of why politicians do the things they do.

It is utterly disingenuous, though, of Leave voters to say that working out how to deliver Brexit has nothing to do with them/it's not their job/the facts and likely outcomes weren't made clear in advance etc etc. Information was widely available. I will concede though that Gove et al did a very good job of drowning it out, or at least distracting from it, with the hateful, and sinister, 'let's all ignore the experts' rhetoric.

If we abandon Brexit now, quite apart from the humiliation of our democratic decision being overturned by a mixture of EU machinations and fifth columnists and anti-democrats at home, the price of re-admission will be to adopt the Euro, join Shengen and give up our rebate. For starters.

The UK is already humiliated. People in this country are allowed to oppose Brexit, that is democracy in action. Once the UK has left I'd expect to rejoin down the line. Younger people will eligible to vote and will likely back rejoining. Unless of course Brexit is roaring success.

TomRavenscroft Please tell what I can do little old me , to work out how to deliver Brexit, I’ve got enough problems getting my breakfast

user1486062886, I should have worded it better. What I really meant was it's disingenuous of Leave voters to say that the facts and likely problems/outcomes of Brexit weren't made clear in advance, when they patently were.

User - I was thinking of popping over next week, kicking some EU butt and bringing back a shiny new deal all before the bank holiday weekend. If you are free you are welcome to join me .

For most committed leavers it wasn’t about money, though I concede all of us will have a breaking point if it hits us in the wallet

So it wasn't about the money, except if it hits you in the pocket.

.... 1973 (when the Tories took us in, with no mandate...

I confess I don't remember what the Tory manifesto was in 1970, but if part of it was to take us into the EEC, then when Heath won what was to many a surprise victory, then that was the mandate.