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'That's just what I think'/'I don't know, I'm not one of the politicians' etc.

It is what I think, and I'm not a politician.
I'm just a person with an opinion, on an Internet forum.

Does that help?

Agree with faith only an idiot does plan for all outcomes. Has a rugby coach we plans A to E. Cameron was a fool. Sadly last in a long line since Major.
Though present lot are starting to catch up

I'm not saying your change of mind doesn't count user only that you are unable to support your reasons why leaving is beneficial other than just a feeling.

Your examples aren't based on anything that can happen whilst outside the EU that couldn't have happened inside.

faith was trying to get someone to apply the 'learn from your mistakes' sentiment to your situation and I just don't see it as being the same.

I hate the reamain campaign, actually and at least equally blame it for todays problems. If it had been positive and tried to sell the eu's benefits, like bear does now, we probably would not be here.

sounds dangerously like victim blaming. What power have remainers had to force us where we are today ? Was it remainers that forced Theresa May to have an election ? Was it remainers that forced Theresa May to trigger A50 ?

No, and no.

And, for the record, I am a patriot, and want to stop my country doing itself potentially irreparable damage. I will lie down before the bulldozers, not get behind them and help push.

If it had been positive and tried to sell the eu's benefits, like bear does now, we probably would not be here.

I'm not trying to sell the benefits of the EU, I'm pointing out some of the massive pitfalls of leaving.

Things that were and are, staring us in the face, but too many people are being too arrogant to even acknowledge them.

That has always been my position on Brexit; remaining was the only option for me simply because we are not in a position to make a success of leaving.

sounds dangerously like victim blaming. What power have remainers had to force us where we are today ? Was it remainers that forced Theresa May to have an election ? Was it remainers that forced Theresa May to trigger A50 ?

He didn't blame remainers for anything though.

He blamed the remain campaign for not pushing the positives as much as they could & should have.

He's right.
Project fear was an arrogant mistake.

Project fear was an arrogant mistake.

even if true ?

If so, there is an ever more sinister implication that the voting public have to be protected from facts in case they are upset by them.

Probably better to let the ruling classes rule, eh ?

That has always been my position on Brexit; remaining was the only option for me simply because we are not in a position to make a success of leaving.

Generally the UK works on inertia, and keeping the status quo.

In the absence of any compelling reasons to leave (as we had) then the bar for change should be higher than the bar for no change. And given the English gave the world cricket on exactly that basis, it's a little odd that it's the English that fail to grasp it.

Project fear was an arrogant mistake

No way near as arrogant or as much of a mistake as resolutely ignoring anything and everything we don't want to here now is.

^^ hear not here!

Michel Barnier said the UK weren't represented at an update today due to a diary clash.

The UK retaliated by saying that was untrue and the meeting was actually this afternoon.

So why is there zero coverage of that and just DD bleating on about being picked on?

DG
I said the remain campaign. In the weeks upto the vote apart from the government's expensive leafet. We in Holderness and Hull had nothing else. We had a least 6 different leafets, including local produced ones and 3 visits from leave campaigns. They where polite and truely willing to discuss the issues and except my remain views. On the afternoon before the polling day the local greens had a eu support table on market day. It was positive and people where engaged. Eldest Ds tried to tell people about the positives too.
I find people like positive campaigns and get turned off my negativity.
Positives
We can have a close relationship with th eu, but have a set of policies that work for Britain. I sorry but we in our house never where comfortable with freedom of movement. Do we really need to import people to wash cars, work in pizza takeways etc.

I was reminded of this by our best man, a leaver.
We both joined the local young farmers group, it was quite small and had been run by the same group of older people between them and really for themselves. At the folloowing year's agm we voted against their new agenda and rules changes.
They all resigned and left, telling us we would collaspe and beg them back in months. We where the youngest club in county/larger region. No one over 22 and half under 16. Well with in 18 months we won small club of the year. Next year we won club of year and 3 county rallies in a row, against teams 4/5 times bigger.
It can be done.
By the way I am not saying that Britain is a yfc but it shows what can be done. It gives my family and hope. The club included my future wife too

user I think it's clear from your posts that you fall firmly into the racist / xenophobic camp. To be fair you're not even trying to dress it up.

If you think preventing a few EU citizens from doing jobs British citizens don't want to do, is preferable to the fall out from leaving the biggest trading bloc in the world and our closest neighbours then that's your call.

Did you know there are actually more people working in the NHS who come from other parts of the world than there are people who come from the EU?
Interesting!

Yet wasn't your whole reason for voting Leave to ensure people from other parts of the world had an even playing field corcory?

Seems it wasn't too big an issue after all.

Why xenophobe, my first girlfriend was a french student studying horse craft in the Uk in 1988. But I want a sensible immigration policy. So yes, well thought list of sectors with shortages and visas for those. But those sectors have to invest in training of our school leavers and others.
We have had 4 raids on local car washes, all had modern slaves there. It is horrifing, we are after all the city where William Wilberforce was Mp.
The last 3 consultants we saw in Hull came from Pakistan, Syria and Iceland. None are Eu countries. I think we have a national shortage of many skills.in the uk, because we haven't bothered to train our youths, because it cheaper to use fully trained immigrants.
Also my family has its roots in France and Denmark.

user thankfully these threads moved on from those who think leaving the EU is as simple as ending FOM quite a while ago.

Or at least, those who genuinely believe that's that is the only repercussion of leaving the EU, long since stepped away.

If that's your view point then that's up to you but there's little point in engaging with people who's outlook is so limited.

I have to be up at 0430 in the morning. I will teturn in the morning.
I still want to calmly and peacefully discuss where we go next. We have to at some point, agree what happens after June 2016.
Bear
I seriously don't want a argument with anyone. I really respect your views and your.constant airing of the problems involved with leaving.
But you sound extemely intelligent and seriously beleive you could add brilliant ideas to how we move forward.
I would love to hear them.
I will add my own tomorrow morning.
Good night

Sorry bear it has moved on and I asked for ideas to move Britain forward. I voted to remain. I really am now only longing into the benefits of leaving. There will alls be benefits. I will add I beleive poiltics will become more grassroot based. I think a new left movement will grow.and slowly we develop a new Britain, based on all the good bits of our country.
So honesty, friendship, welcoming and genuine care for others

Bear - the point of my posting the facts about NHS employees is that so often we hear about how the NHS can't survive without FOM! It can and it will. It also turns out that the NHS hasn't lost loads of EU staff since June 2016. So another myth debunked.

So if the NHS is staffed by people from all around the world it's really not an issue them coming here is it cocrory

What are your views on the current situation wrt leaving?

What do you think about the fact we are a worldwide laughing stock because of our arrogance?

Are you impressed with DD et al?

user I think it's clear from your posts that you fall firmly into the racist / xenophobic camp. To be fair you're not even trying to dress it up.

How is it clear?

Quotes please, to support.

RTFT faith

But to save you the trouble, here's an example.

I sorry but we in our house never where comfortable with freedom of movement. Do we really need to import people to wash cars, work in pizza takeways etc.

We don't though.

Granted it's clumsy speech, but racist & xenophobic?

I disagree.