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Brexit

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 13/08/2017 09:43

Nigel Farage @ Nigel_Farage
Cannot believe we're seeing Nazi salutes in 21st century America.

Yeah, that's what we said on 16th June 2016, when some dickhead stood in front of a poster.

The thing is, what Farage says with faux surprise isn't unusual or isolated to him. It's widespread. It's perhaps the norm rather than the exception in many circles.

It's represents a total lack of self awareness. It represents the disconnect that what comes out of your mouth tends to have an effect on the people around you, whether intentioned that way or not when you talk about 'others' or 'not belonging'.

It's a direct effect of nationalism.

Patriotism seems to be something that people have totally lost the plot with and don't understand. It's used as a defence for nationalism. It is the last defence of the scoundrel. Patriotism and being pro-EU or not being a racist dick are not mutually exclusive, though you'd be forgiven for thinking differently these days.

I think a lot of people will sit and go, "Look at America, that is awful. I'm glad we are not like that".

Except we are far more than we realise. Grenfell says much about that.

There's an phrase and Southern Wolves and Northern Wolves when it comes to racism in America. The UK is like the Northern Wolf. Sly and silver tongued to justify and hide racism because 'Look they are worse than us. We are the good guys'.

A bit like saying, you talked to an EU citizen and they were just as racist as me, so Brexit is ok.

It's the twisted desperation to justify the othering rather than take responsibility for enabling and emboldening racism. Then dressing it up as some legitimate political cause which actually you have zero understanding or comprehension of the consequences of.

Brexit has some deep roots in Nazi type fantasies. You can not separate the idea that Britain is superior and Brits are better than Europeans from too much Brexit logic. The Empire was not a pretty thing for much of the world. It's worrying.

Not to mention we've had a right wing attack on a group of people outside a mosque in this fashion before the US had that attack yesterday.

Let's not think that because we haven't had blokes with tiki torches providing a photographic opportunity and theatre for the TV producer that we are somehow 'better'. Or not as bad as America.

The only real difference between them and us is the brash openness about it and the fact they have a bunch of guns.

This was predictable. Indeed I expected and I expect more. There will be more and it will get far, far worse in the US. Yesterday was just the start. Trump wants it. He will fuel it. He will capitalise from it. Yes your mate Donald loves a bit of bigotry, Nig.

There no guarantees it won't happen here for various reasons. It just is characterised in a slightly different way because we are British and don't really do brash in anything as it's not our way.

It's too easy for Farage. Or Johnson. Or May. Or whoever to just walk away and innocently say they are shocked and bear no responsibility because they don't wave Nazi flags about.

You don't have to do that, to share the same values or believe the same thing. Salutes and flags are just branding. A repackaged version for the 21st century is even more dangerous.

We won't forget who Farage hangs out with or courts for publicity and attention. Farage only says and does what he thinks he can get away with. That's part of the ugly truth.

We still have not even started to confront the relationship between racism and Brexit. Indeed, much seems to be happening to suggest that after blaming EU, that there are a Brexit opportunities for scapegoating opening up.

For me yesterday was depressing not because it happened, but because we saw it coming and because our country is in denial about being the same.

Farage is the very personification of it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
Knope2020 · 24/08/2017 18:16

twitter.com/Samfr/status/900464904997679104

fakenamefornow · 24/08/2017 18:19

What's this Chappers thing?

BigChocFrenzy · 24/08/2017 18:21

Veeery interesting, woman
He's very pro-Trump too and warning now of the alt-left
A full time office job paid by Putin

I wonder how many others tweeters & posters have been spewing out Putin's propaganda on Brexit & Trump ?

woman12345 · 24/08/2017 18:29

Well, there you are BigChoc didn't we have some energetic visitors to this thread over the last year. Hmm Even the scripts were familiar. Shame, it could have been a chance to practise my Russian. Sad
Horrorshow. Grin

A lot of this trump/brexit malarkey is playing out like a pretty poor james bond script.

RandomlyGenerated · 24/08/2017 19:15

I always thought that Claig was a paid agitator.

BiglyBadgers · 24/08/2017 19:32

The Trump threads get some interesting trumpettes that always seem to pop up with remarkably similar rhetoric at key news moments.

SwedishEdith · 24/08/2017 19:59

That David Jones stuff is so interesting isn't it? I've noticed that account for a while. Whenever I see or get banal abuse on Twitter and I check out the abuser's account, he's always on it. I use it as a benchmark of who to ignore. So, I was delighted when that thread appeared last night - made so much make sense. He's supposedly an English teacher based in Moscow. He (and the analyst does believe it's a human rather than a bot) is English. Lots of accounts are giveaways for being non-English as 1st language due to repeated syntax and grammar errors.

mathanxiety · 24/08/2017 20:16

www.bbc.com/news/uk-41038542

The Finnish professor is not alone.

mathanxiety · 24/08/2017 20:18

(Incidentally, what happened to Claig? S/he suddenly wasn't around any more.)

SwedishEdith · 24/08/2017 20:21

Banned, I think. Well, must be really, you'd know if they were back. Not sure what the final straw was but I have my own theory - but it is just that.

RandomlyGenerated · 24/08/2017 20:37

It was a Trump thread math, I missed the final few pages but it was getting heated and the Claig mask was slipping the last I saw of it.

pointythings · 24/08/2017 22:03

Shame, Claig was always highly entertaining about how wonderful Nigel Farage was and would no doubt have supplied a unique brand of sparkly rainbow unicorns and sunlit uplands to the Brexit debate.

thecatfromjapan · 24/08/2017 22:10

The David Jones thread is excellent. I'm incredibly impressed by the analysis and its representation.

I'm now convinced we had a number of those Putin trolls on mn during Brexit. I can't understand why the presence of these on social media during the campaign isn't more of an issue in mainstream media. Confused I do wonder how many Brexit voting nativists were unknowingly influenced by social media feeds, pushing a Putinesque anti-EU line -- and how they'd feel to know that?

Current advice is to be suspicious of obvious trolls (on Twitter) but to not engage (let alone re-tweet) because it raises the rating of their influence (or something). I think we can tell from my description, there, that I'm not super-techie!! One of the good things about the David Jones thread is that it makes clear a lot of the 'warning signs' (though the crazy pro-Putin line is a bit of a giveaway!).

woman12345 · 24/08/2017 22:50

@EUflagmafia
My first view of the Dover Banksie, a remainer and ukip hater. #remain

Westministenders: I can't believe it's not butter
BigChocFrenzy · 25/08/2017 01:22

Nobel prize winners ?
Experts - we don't listen to them ! Hmm

(paywall) Questions over Brexit outcome as Nobel laureates gather in Germany

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/08/24/questions-brexit-outcome-nobel-laureates-gather-germany/

The world’s Nobel economists and top German officials are deeply pessimistic about Britain’s prospects outside the European Union,
warning that any drift towards a hard Brexit in the current global mood would be tantamount to strategic suicide.

“Brexit is England’s biggest policy blunder since George III fumbled away the American colonies,”
said Daniel McFadden, speaking at the triennial Nobel forum on Lake Constance.

“The true costs of Brexit have yet to be seen.
We’re only just starting to see an exodus from the City.
The financial industry is diversifying and some of it is not going to come back,”

Professor McFadden won the Nobel Prize in 2000 for his work on complex social systems and ‘public choice’.
As choices go, calling the British referendum was in his view a near catastrophe.

“For Ireland, Brexit has created a very sad problem.
You started off with a (North-South) arrangement that was working well and you screwed it up,”

Peter Altmaier, Chancellor Angela Merkel’s chief of staff,
said every effort would be made to limit the damage for both Britain and the EU but warned that
it is impossible to “make a win-win out of this mess.”

“When we see the preparations for Brexit talks in Brussels,
we can see how difficult it is for our friends in the UK to establish their national interest and their negotiation papers.
We can see this will mean severe loss, not only for the UK but also for the EU itself,”

“Can you imagine when you have a couple, man and wife, two children, a house, a boat, a car, they are married for thirty years, and then they divorce?
It will be a win-win for the advocates of course, but certainly not for the family,”

“Of course there is life outside the EU: look at Switzerland.
But in Switzerland for decades they already transpose every important directive and regulation in order to be part of the single market, without any influence in what is adopted in Brussels,”

Mr Altmaier’s tone was more in sorrow than in anger.
He is considered cordial towards Britain, and may prove pivotal figure in restraining those of the EU side who want a punitive stance in Brexit talks.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/08/2017 02:01

Remember the first protester shot by the alt-right under the Trump administration - on inauguration night ?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/man-shot-milo-yiannopoulos-protest-seattle-trump-interview

Cailleach1 · 25/08/2017 04:53

So, it was all over the news this evening that 'new' numbers show that the vast majority of students do comply with their visa and so not stay on in the UK illegally. That means that the gov't is possibly nearer to meeting it's targets on immigration.

Very interesting and all. Of course, these new numbers are just estimates too. Isn't the real story that Theresa May knew this but buried it and gave a speech afterwards sticking to the large numbers of students who stayed on. Some people might call that lying. That would be the real story, you'd think.

Migration Watch seem to be pushed by the BBC as some sort of objective apolitical organisation. They were on the BBC this evening, too. They say they are non-political, but they have been called a lobbying or pressure group.

Cailleach1 · 25/08/2017 05:00

From Wiki,
'In October 2011, Andrew Green started a petition on the UK government's e-petitions website, calling on the government "to take all necessary steps to get immigration down to a level that will stabilise our population as close to the present level as possible and, certainly, well below 70 million".[22] When the petition closed on 20 October 2012, it had attracted 145,536 signatures.[23]'

'Similarly, in February 2013, Migration Matters, an organisation chaired by Labour MP Barbara Roche and co-chaired by Conservative MP Gavin Barwell, criticised the BBC for treating MigrationWatch's analysis as politically neutral.[20]'

That is interesting, 'cos they were on BBC tonight as simply neutral and 'expert'. As a balance. Andrew Green being their founder. There is just so much wrong with the information the public is receiving and how neutral it is. Wiki says Daily Mail just copy and paste from MigrationWatch UK

From Wiki again,

'MigrationWatch claims to support the principle of political asylum[29] but argues that many asylum seekers do not have a genuine case for qualifying for refugee status and are instead using the asylum system to gain entry to the UK for economic reasons.'

Would you trust their numbers. Wonder what the supposed methodology is.

woman12345 · 25/08/2017 07:18

So glad to see Germany still talking sense, and a free press,(German magazine published picture of trump doing nazi salute this week) BCF
Cailleach1 so similar to 1930s attitudes to diaspora Jews.

Carole Cadwalla has a lively thread on this:

@carolecadwalla
Replying to @carolecadwalla @conspirator0 and 5 others
Plot thickens. @MikeH_PR tracked down David Jones for The European -UKIP councillor in NI. His phone attached to account..but tweets not his

woman12345 · 25/08/2017 07:34

Why does Andy Wigmore follow the mysterious David Jones?

@carolecadwalla
Replying to @andywigmore
How does it shift opinion?By being followed by influential accounts, p'raps?
You follow him, Andy.
Care to explain?

woman12345 · 25/08/2017 07:43

German supermarket empties shelves of foreign-made goods to make a point about racism
All products made outside Germany removed by Edeka

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/edeka-german-supermarket-empty-shelves-racism-diversity-largest-chain-a7908551.html

Tesco has two options on empty shelves; one which is a chosen protest against brexit/dm racism or one which is the inevitable result of brexit.

Expecting more weimar style/ pound in free fall food price rises this week anyway.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/08/2017 07:52

So much for the 350 million extra for the NHS ... which we now know a significant % of Leavers believed

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/25/nhs-accused-of-keeping-secret-its-plans-to-cut-services

"The NHS has been accused of keeping the public in the dark about controversial plans to plug a £250m funding gap by rationing services."

woman12345 · 25/08/2017 07:58

In reality, the NHS is a fictional concept now, BCF. For the moment.

Turd Reich: San Francisco dog owners lay minefield of poo for rightwing rally

I just had this image of alt-right people stomping around in the poop,’ says the organizer of an unusual protest ahead of Saturday’s Patriot Prayer rally

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/24/san-francisco-dog-poo-protest-patriot-prayer-rally

I wonder if those who enjoy planting plastic bags of poo in trees in england could be mobilised to help with a similar campaign against edl and orange lodge marches.

thecatfromjapan · 25/08/2017 08:16

That's an interesting development in the David Jones situation. I don't think it ever occurred to me that there could be more of a level of, what? - co-ordination? enablement? legitimisation? - than simply paying groups of people to propagate an agenda on social media and amplify each other.

thecatfromjapan · 25/08/2017 08:32

You know, deep, deep down, I honestly didn't think any government would allow damage to the City. Despite all of my fears, and my cynicism, a small part of me honestly thought that someone in government would do anything to prevent that. The fact that this hasn't happened, and that the movement has, indeed, begun, is the thing that tells me Brexit is uncontrollable and set to be utterly damaging.

I'm thinking of the webchat experts had with MN. I think about how successful it was (and continues to be) to simply rebrand expert opinion as 'Project Fear' (how can such a simple rhetorical move, such a ridiculous rhetorical move, have such power???). I keep thinking about the expert opinion on that webchat about the worst-case economic projections about the effects. And I feel very, very worried.

It's happening and there is still an absence of seriousness in the acknowledgement of this, which permits people generally to ignore it. Sad

I completely agree that there is an issue with the presentation of facts and truth.

Sorry, that is one long wail. Sad

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